GTO Goes Drifting

Nothing major, forgot to post it last week (opps:))

Pontiac Enters Two New Motorsports Series



DETROIT - General Motors today announced that Pontiac would compete in two new motorsports series, each highlighting the new performance prowess of the division's vehicles. In 2004, Pontiac will participate in the Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series and the Formula D Drift Series in addition to the division's continuing involvement with both the Pro Stock and Sport Compact classes of the National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) series.

"When Pontiac departed from NASCAR competition at the end of the 2003 series, we knew that continued participation in motorsports was a high priority for the division," said Lynn Myers, Pontiac-GMC general manager. "As we were looking at the different racing opportunities, both the Rolex Series and Formula D Drifting stood out as exciting new venues to showcase the power and handling of the new Pontiacs."

Beginning with the prestigious Rolex 24 At Daytona event on January 31-February 1, Pontiac will field three vehicles in the Daytona Prototype class. Using a chassis and suspension system built to very specific standards, the cars are powered by modified Pontiac small-block V-8 engines regulated to 5.5 liters of displacement. The two-valve, naturally aspirated powerplants are variants of the engine used in the new 2004 Pontiac GTO.

Pontiac will power the entries of three experienced teams, including Bell Motorsports with drivers Terry Borcheller, Forest Barber, Christian Fittipaldi and Andy Pilgrim; Spirit of Daytona, driven by Robby Gordon, Stephan Gregorie, Milka Duno and Doug Goad; and SunTrust Racing, driven by Wayne Taylor, Max Angelelli and Emmanuel Collard.

"We are very fortunate to have such skilled and enthusiastic teams to help launch Pontiac into the world of Rolex Series racing," said Myers.

While sports car racing in the Rolex Series may be familiar to some, the sport of drifting is relatively new to North America. First developed in Japan, drifting combines extreme driving skill with flair and artistry as drivers negotiate a complicated course at high speeds while in a controlled slide. The competition is judged on execution and style rather than speed, similar to skateboarding and freestyle motorcross.

Top U.S. drifting driver Rhys Millen will pilot a modified 2004 Pontiac GTO in the new Formula Drift Series sanctioned by the Sports Car Club of America. In addition to series events that begin in April, Millen will compete in the D1 Championship event in Irwindale, Calif., on February 28.

"The GTO seems almost tailor-made for a sport requiring both pure rear-wheel power and extreme agility," said Myers. "Combine the GTO with perhaps the best drifting driver in the country and it's easy to see why Pontiac is really excited about the possibilities on the Formula Drift circuit in 2004."

Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's my bias towards Japanese and Euro brands that have started the drifting fad. But I think drifting is not a true "sport" and is frankly stupid.

Anyone else feel this way? I'm sure some love it but to me it is not a true "motorsport"

A motorsport can be quantified, ie numbers are involved like time, distance, mph, etc. In drifting the winner is "judged" best by some person on certain criteria. This is a qualitative judgement, no numbers are involved. It comes down to a judges opinion. To me it's like figure skating, they get a number but that number is based on a person's opinion.

To me a true motorsport must be quantified. The numbers don't lie. 12.0 sec. beats 12.1 sec. every time, there is NO debate. In drifting the winner could be debated constantly.

I've never been to a drifting event live. I've seen some on TV. I think it looks pretty cool don't get me wrong. I love power slides and smoky burnouts as much as the next guy. But making a sport out of it? :huh:

I'm sure some if not many will disagree with me. That's fine. I'm just trying to see if anyone else thinks like me on this issue. I have no problem with drifting as a competition but to elevate it to the level of a Motorsport I believe is a mistake. How about straight line driving? Let's see how straight someone can drive say on the Bonneville Salt Flats and then let someone judge them on style and straightness. See my point? When you let someones opinion dictate the outcome of a competition it makes the winner debatable in my eyes.

OK I'm done, off the soapbox. Hope the new GTO does well in these Drifting events even though I can't consider it a true Motorsport.


:)

I agree with you wholeheartedly Orbit. Kind of the 'synchronized swimming' of motorsports <_<

Kind of the 'synchronized swimming' of motorsports


I like that analogy. I'll remember that one Scott. :D

I almost feel like starting another poll on this topic. Maybe I will if we get a few more responses on this thread.

B)

Anything that has judging involved is not truly a sport.

Anything that has judging involved is not truly a sport.

So since ball/strike calls is a judgement call by the umpire, baseball isn't a sport.

Since 10 second and 3 sec violations and was it a charge or a foul are all judgement calls, basketball isn't a sport.

Spotting the ball after every play, determining if it was an incomplete pass or a catch, was it a 5 yrd or 15 yard facemask penalty. All judgement calls so football isn't a sport.

Determining if you stopped in your box correctly, was all your lug nuts on, should someone be black flagged. All judgement calls so Nascar isn't a sport.

Note all these judgements can have an effect on the final score or placement of a team so I can't agree with your statement.

Do I think there is far more judgment involved in drifting. Yes. Do I think of drifting as a motorsport. Can't say haven't seen more than about 60 seconds of it and have zero knowledge as to what skill it takes. Do I think if something called a sport involves someones judgement it isn't a sport. Definitely not because almost every sport has overseers that make judgments where those judgements effect the final score.

Good points digital.

Judgement calls are a part of many sports, but those calls usually have a small bearing on the game or competition. Balls and strikes for instance are a judgement call but the umpires do not decide the score. Referees in football call penalties and fumbles and spots of possession but they do not decide the score. Track officials might find something illegal but they don't manually type in the ET, the car runs it. I could go on and on.

Maybe if someone could post some drifting rules at a sanctioned event here so we could actually see how they were scored or determined, I might be persuaded to change my mind. Until I see it though I can't elevate drifting into the serious realm of motorsports. It just feels like it falls somewhere above a car show or burnout contest and a timed/measured race or event.

I've got nothing against drifting, it just seems to be not quite a real sport in my eyes. But that is just opinion. It even looks fun. This really is an old debate in a new venue.

You make excellent points digital, I just can't be convinced yet. :)

Very well put OO. I suppose my statement should read any endeavor that is totally based on judges deciding the outcome, instead of timing and / or objective scoring by a participant, is not a sport (boxing, figure skating, many of the x-sports are good examples). It could be very entertaining to watch, and probably fun to participate in - but if it requires a judge to pick the winner rather than an objective scoring method - it fits an 'exhibition' in my mind, rather than a sport.

That being said - it is certainly better to have an established arena for young kids getting into 'rodding' to safely be involved in - rather than street racing. (And yes, whether you like it or not, 'rice' is just another form of rodding).

Most of you guys can't really say much about Drifting, becasue a lot of you hardly know of the MOTORSPORT!! To get into D1 and be able to make it to the top 16, each one of those guys have around 10 years of experience in drifting, and total dedication to the sport. It takes that long to become good enough to be able to even have a chance in winning D1. How long does it take to get good enough to run nascar... not too long, since your going round in circles the whole time. Drifting is by far the most challenging motorsport to master.

There has to be judges, and each judge IS a experienced drifter with maybe 20 years behind his belt..... so they know what's good and what stinks, when it comes to drifting.... They in no way play favorites either.

At the time of this writting I just got back from the D1 event in Irwindale Speedway, and wanted to find out more on the GTO, that Rhys Millen was driving. I saw him live before in a Supra and he was way better than today, but what could someone expect from him..... driving a Modified 2004 GTO that was put together only 5 days before the event..... Hopefuly the GTO will be better the next time it drifts.... I think it just needs more miles, which in turn will result in better performance mods to make that car a winner!

I will say this tho.... For those that think drifting is not a motorsport and should be left in Japan........ Go to a good Event like D1. If you sit through the whole thing, I will bet you, that you have then changed your mind. If you go to a small drifting session you wont be that impresed, becasue they are'nt going for the D1 championship.

Since you guys missed out on D1.... I might suggest you look up "Drift Bible" and watch it to learn about drifting, and how it's done. There are a few places where you can download it.. and many places where you can get the DVD. Well worth the money.

Originally posted by Orbit Orange@Feb 5 2004, 01:43 PM
Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's my bias towards Japanese and Euro brands that have started the drifting fad. But I think drifting is not a true "sport" and is frankly stupid.

Anyone else feel this way? I'm sure some love it but to me it is not a true "motorsport"

A motorsport can be quantified, ie numbers are involved like time, distance, mph, etc. In drifting the winner is "judged" best by some person on certain criteria. This is a qualitative judgement, no numbers are involved. It comes down to a judges opinion. To me it's like figure skating, they get a number but that number is based on a person's opinion.

To me a true motorsport must be quantified. The numbers don't lie. 12.0 sec. beats 12.1 sec. every time, there is NO debate. In drifting the winner could be debated constantly.

I've never been to a drifting event live. I've seen some on TV. I think it looks pretty cool don't get me wrong. I love power slides and smoky burnouts as much as the next guy. But making a sport out of it? :huh:

I'm sure some if not many will disagree with me. That's fine. I'm just trying to see if anyone else thinks like me on this issue. I have no problem with drifting as a competition but to elevate it to the level of a Motorsport I believe is a mistake. How about straight line driving? Let's see how straight someone can drive say on the Bonneville Salt Flats and then let someone judge them on style and straightness. See my point? When you let someones opinion dictate the outcome of a competition it makes the winner debatable in my eyes.

OK I'm done, off the soapbox. Hope the new GTO does well in these Drifting events even though I can't consider it a true Motorsport.


:)

WTF?! what pseudo-intellectual ****! so most olympic events are bogus?! i feel sorry for anyone remotely following your argument. rally racing is out, too -the foundation for drifting. so is figure skating. that is judged and opinionated. boxing is out, too. that is opinionated and judged.

while we're at it, i could sit here and bash the new GTO, in your pious manner, and say "well, i'm an elitist as@hole, and i condescendinly conclude that the new GTO is just a pathetic piece of sh!t, nothing like the real goat. it even tries to look ***." and your salt-flat example is like comparing apples to torque wrenches. what a close-minded, full-of-gaping-holes, argument you have.

you are probably an older person who is out of touch with the times. you must think snowboarding, skateboarding, anything that is "x-games" or freestyle is not a sport. and D1 is not even freestyling. and it is clear to me that you have no idea what import-tuning is about, what performance is really about; you have no idea what skill and driving talent means or is, as if it is an artless, sportless act. have you been in a cave? can you connect the dots like any common ape and realize why GM is interested in drifting?

btw, rhys millen did very well at irwindale, as i was there to witness it. the japanese killed him, though. they were more aggressive, faster, more developed, better drivers, at least at present. the new GTO is awesome, though. i can tell you that. you don't know power until you've seen it sideways at full-throttle.

What's this? A one shot troll?
:ph34r: :ph34r:

Dang, what a ridiculous topic. I am with the haters on this one. You lovers are getting everything all mixed up. There is no place for 'style points' in a motorsports event. Motorsports are timed events. The way times are determined are very different for various forms, but winners are always determined by the clock and not some style judge.

I defy anyone to point me to a true form of motorsports that relies on anything but a timer to determine the winner. I have probably watched every form of motorsport that exists and can not come up with one single example.

The Rally analogy is pretty weak. Those guys appear to drive with style, but only do it that way because it is the fastest way through the course.

Even Monster Trucks race against the clock and against each other. First one to the other end wins. They do have freestyle, but that is separate and no points are given...just bragging rights for crowd favorite.

Drifting is NOT a motorsports competition soley because they are not competing to be the fastest around the course...they are competing for style points. Just like X-gamers vs. downhill skiiers or jumpers. Just like figure skaters vs. speed skaters. Just like synchronized swimming vs. whatever they call the actual swimming races. I know that X-gamers and figure skaters are serious about their 'sports', but that does not make them any more quantifiable in my mind.

I am sure many are serious about their drifting and we will see entire 'racing series' formed here, but it will be just like car shows. Maybe fun to go see and the competetors are all serious, but still a judged event...and not one that qualifies as a true motorsport event.

Originally posted by scottknight@Mar 1 2004, 12:22 PM
I defy anyone to point me to a true form of motorsports that relies on anything but a timer to determine the winner.
As I rethink that statement, I should have probably said something more along the lines of a 'measuring device' rather than a 'timer'. Truck/tractor pulls are surely valid motorsports, but only have distance. Demolotion derby teeters precariously close to exhibition (I personally think it is exhibition), but does have the 'last one standing' as a winner. Rock crawling/Trial Bikes are a bit unique and I am not familiar enough with the rules, but my understanding is that they are graded on a system of not backing up, getting stuck, stopping for too long, etc.

There, I have properly qualified my position and still stand by it. :P

Originally posted by scottknight+Mar 1 2004, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (scottknight @ Mar 1 2004, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-scottknight@Mar 1 2004, 12:22 PM
I defy anyone to point me to a true form of motorsports that relies on anything but a timer to determine the winner.
As I rethink that statement, I should have probably said something more along the lines of a 'measuring device' rather than a 'timer'. Truck/tractor pulls are surely valid motorsports, but only have distance. Demolotion derby teeters precariously close to exhibition (I personally think it is exhibition), but does have the 'last one standing' as a winner. Rock crawling/Trial Bikes are a bit unique and I am not familiar enough with the rules, but my understanding is that they are graded on a system of not backing up, getting stuck, stopping for too long, etc.

There, I have properly qualified my position and still stand by it. :P [/b][/quote]

motor: " a comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion engine in an automobile or motorboat."

sport: "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often competitive in nature."

you can interpret that as you will.

to "haters" of D1, i cannot see how you invalidate it. it is a highly competitive, highly skilled discipline. the problem i have with your argument is that if you lump D1 in with the other sports, like figure skating, snowboarding, and synchro swimming, you are saying that an entire range of athletic competitions are not even sports.

Originally posted by bonzelite@Mar 1 2004, 04:11 PM
the problem i have with your argument is that if you lump D1 in with the other sports, like figure skating, snowboarding, and synchro swimming, you are saying that an entire range of athletic competitions are not even sports.
There, now you are getting it. I know they are accepted as sports because society says so, but they are truly judging contests much like pagaents. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy viewing some of them (especially pagaents :dribble: ), but hardly consider them 'sports'.

There are many that are considered sports, but the results are truly in the hands of the judges...and subject to the human error of judging. Boxing (unless KO), figure skating, most gymnastics, anything freestyle, most equestrian competitions, dog shows, fitness (whatever you call it when those apes flex their muscles on stage to music), blah, blah, blah.

Figure skating is a 'sport' because rich people made it that way many years ago.

X-games are accepted as sports because the people with money see the need to tap into a trend with the current youth. But, all of them are judged events, very much like the dog show.

Contrast that with measured sporting events: Track and field, ball games, racing (whether it be dog, horse, boat, car, bicycle, lawntractor, or...), ultimate fighting championship, marathon running, hockey, badminton, pool, chess, bowling and even shuffleboard qualify. Not all of them are interesting enough to have sanctioning bodies and million dollar purses, but they fit the intent of the description.

I never said drifting does not take skill. I never said it would not be fun to watch. I guarantee it would be fun to participate in. I just think it is a joke to the motorsports community to include it as anything other than an exhibition...like wheelstanders or jet cars. Unfortunately, I know it will happen and in the end it will be a lot like the X-games at the Olympics.

Originally posted by scottknight@Mar 1 2004, 03:35 PM

There, now you are getting it. I know they are accepted as sports because society says so, but they are truly judging contests much like pagaents. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy viewing some of them (especially pagaents :dribble: ), but hardly consider them 'sports'.


I never said drifting does not take skill. I never said it would not be fun to watch. I guarantee it would be fun to participate in. I just think it is a joke to the motorsports community to include it as anything other than an exhibition...like wheelstanders or jet cars. Unfortunately, I know it will happen and in the end it will be a lot like the X-games at the Olympics.
i fully see where you are coming from. i get it. i could take your side in a debate and argue for it, actually. but i do not totally buy it.

i apologize for the flaming posts earlier. i reacted because i felt you were invalidating drifting *in general*. if you saw it live, you'd sh!t a brick with enjoyment. you would
probably love it. especially the GTO, being that you must be a fan of the car, else you wouldn't be on this forum.

using your "paradigm" as a model of judgement, the sport or not-sport argument will never end. i do think that to lump drifting or boxing into a "pagaent" description is a bit miscalled. boxing is a pagaent on par with a dog show? c'mon. you can split hairs on this forever: umpires and refs in games are, really, judges. so football is a pagaent, as is baseball, with arguments flaring between coaches and officials. hockey is a pagaent like a cat show and is not a true sport. tennis is a joke and not a sport; soccer is an exhibition. almost nothing is a sport, then. holy cow.

Originally posted by bonzelite@Mar 1 2004, 06:53 PM
umpires and refs in games are, really, judges. so football is a pagaent, as is baseball, with arguments flaring between coaches and officials. hockey is a pagaent like a cat show and is not a true sport. tennis is a joke and not a sport; soccer is an exhibition. almost nothing is a sport, then. holy cow.
I think you missed the earlier point. The judges in the sports you mentioned do not decide the score. They can only indirectly effect it. Therefore your logic and conclusion is faulty.

I like drifting, I think it's cool. And I have a lot of respect for those that have mastered it. They really make it look at lot easier than it is. I'm a little put off with the whole fad thing that surrounds it (and the ensuing ricer remarks), but that doesn't change what I said above. Also, in case it wasn't clear, I don't think drifting is a motorsport. A bunch of people who are "serious" and "devoted" along with a section called "judges" as well as possible sponsors does not a motorsport make.

What I think we could be splitting hairs on, however, is what the definition of "motorsport" is...

i apologize for the flaming posts earlier. i reacted because i felt you were invalidating drifting *in general*.

I'll accept if this is also intended for me. Some of your comments were out of line as I was stating my opinion which is my perogative here. If you don't like it tough.

I'm probably younger than you think also. And yes I don't think "Exhibitions/Competitions" where the winner is based mostly on an opinion score by a "Judge" are not true sports. Sorry that's just my opinion, you'd be surprised how many people feel the same way. That's not to say these "pseudosports" I'll call them for lack of a better name don't have their merit. If people like them fine. Quantities (numbers) don't lie. Qualities (judgements) are in the eye of the beholder and inheritantly are biased. It's a fact accept it.

I'm glad you like drifting, I admit I'd probably enjoy doing it. Do I think it's a sport? No. That's OK though. Many people love it and want to treat it as a sport and that's fine but there is a line between numbers and opinions and Drifting falls underneath the opinion banner.

If you'd like to debate this in a civilized manner like the last couple of posts great. If not and I see more name-calling and derogatory comments like in your first post I WILL deal with it. Consider that a promise. Hope I don't have to.

I think if you delete all the [/color] signs except for one at the end, it will make them go away..

I saw a few of you say you might like to particapate, or enjoy trying to drfit. Not sure if you mean in a empty parking lot or what..... but good luck with that, if you don't like the idea of it being a sport, you will give it up pretty easily.

I never meant my comments to imply that I had any intention of ever trying it. Having grown up in rural MI, I certainly have had my share of practice on the gravel back roads and frozen lakes, however...hence my position that it 'looks like fun'. As close as I will ever come to drifting is when my car gets out of shape at the autocross event ;)

Just for reference, I would probably enjoy just about any activity that involves taking a vehicle to or past it's limits. Lapping a Winston Cup car would be a blast even though I despise the whole culture of NASCAR itself. Same goes for an IRL car...can't stand to watch that racing any more, but sure would be great fun driving one of the cars. Monster trucks, swamp buggies and even lawnmower racing would all be huge grins if I had the chance to try them out, but I do not waste my time watching those events. Unfortunately, I am not wealthy enough or have enough time on my hands to try out all the things that would be interesting.

I guess i could be considered a "one shot troll" as tails so elequently put it (one that has no spelling skills mind you :P hehe), but i figured that i had to voice my opinion on the matter.

Yes, drifting is a sport that is judged by one person, or a small panel of people. However, the judging is a bit different than what you assume Orbit Orange. It's not just 'style points'. The judging is based on a few things, normally:

Entry Speed
Race Lines
Smoothness (here's where style comes in)
and how much pressure they're putting on the other driver/how far away they can pull from the other driver (in tandom drifting)

To people who havn't been in the sport very long, or who have only seen it a couple times, it'd be easy to draw the conclusion that it's judged simply on what one or a few judges thinks looks cool, but common motorsports rules do apply. The fastest, most skilled person will win the match. Even if the judge hates them, as long as it's judged unbaisedly, the best will win and it's not just based on looks.

I personally, bieng someone who IS biased twards the japanese motorsports, somewhat cringed when i heard that the new GTO was going to be at irwindale for it's debut into the drifting world. I mean i'm sure we could go on and on for hours about domestic vs import, and we'd each have our own opinion. My personal opinion leans twards imports, however after seeing the GTO fly around the track at the expert hands of rhys millen, and just witnessing the cars overall performance, i'd have to say that i'm very impressed. if i was in the market to buy a new car, i'd seriously consider it (as well as the 3 other pontiac RWD cars that are soon to be coming out.. all of which bieng race inspired).

I'm not trying to start any fights here, just trying to help you understand the sport (and yes, i obviously consider it a sport) a bit better. it's not all about just powersliding, it's sliding the car way beyond it's gripping limits, and controlling it.

I sure hope you aren't a one shot troll because your post was mature, fair and you stated not only what you felt in a clear manner but clarified some of the rules too. We always welcome intelligent and polite individuals to the boards. I see a one shot troll coming on here saying something like, "You SUCK OO!" or other childish namecalling. Your points are well put and appreciated. :)

I'm still not under the impression of calling it a true motorsport yet, but when you explain some of the mechanics maybe it will sway my thinking.

If the GTO gets a new crowd interested in it or Pontiac in general it's a good thing. I'm glad you like Drifting and the GTO. Hope you decide to hang around and post. :)

I might stick around, just because i like to learn all i can about all of the cars involved in drifting, but since i usually spend the little free time i have online, on my forum (http://www.driftcentral.com), i don't always have a lot of free time to venture elsewhere. Thank you for the polite comments however :)

Well, let me try to add a bit more about actual drifting competitions to maybe see if i can convince you :P Drifting competitions are somewhat unlike other races or motorsports, however the competition structure is not unlike other competitions. it starts out with a broad expance of people, which are usually eliminated down to the top 16 by doing individual runs, in which they're judged on individual speed, style (how fast and how long they can hold a drift, how close they get to the walls, and how smooth they transition), and race lines. If the judges don't feel that those people will have the skill to compete with the more skilled racers, they are eliminated. once they get down to the top 16, they do it in rounds of 2 competitors. The goal of the person in front is to pull away, and the goal of the person in back, is to try to push the person in front of them (not literally, but get close to them and try to put pressure on them). Then after a run, they switch positions. The person to put the most pressure on the other driver/pull the furthest away, wins the round.. They eliminate 1 driver per set of rounds this way until a winner is decided. So in a sence of 'racing', it is not necessarily a race. However what it is (i guess you could say) is a show of skill and controlling your car. It isn't easy to slide a car sideways at over 100 mph, withen feet (sometimes inches) of someone who's trying to do the same thing, but better/faster. If i could find the video i'm looking for, i'd show you a quick little drifting trailor from the d1gp (the largest and most popular drifting competition, which made it's way to the US last year, and that the new GTO competed in this year (out in irwindale)).

I'll probably come back and start actually browsing the forum from time to time, but i figured i should try to clear up what drifting is a bit more now that i had a second :D

Glad you replied.

I was interested in this.

(how fast and how long they can hold a drift, how close they get to the walls, and how smooth they transition), and race lines.

Now this I can understand. Speed, time and distance are all quantifiable measurements. They can't be debated. If they are given the the lionshare of points then I might be able to lean towards motorsport. It's the "style" I have issue with. We all have individual likes and dislikes and if a Judge can award points on his likes or dislikes then it really become a competition, much like the judging of figure skating in the Olympics. Now if there are certain "moves" or routines that must be performed to accumulate these style points then once again I could lean your direction.

I guess I really need to see a D1 competition and get a firm grip on the rules before I make my final judgement. But I must say you are educating me in the process and I appreciate that and your patience with me. Hope you'll stick around. :)

To bad the GTO got its a$$ kicked........
Why dont they enter them in Nascar......if they're so much like a grand am or gran prix

When it comes to drifting, it's a matter of opinion. I like it. Others obviously don't. It's really no different than the drag racers of the 50's and 60's. It's just a different way of approaching things. It's more than a fishtail, too. The influence of the police has become so extreme, and they have cracked down so hard on streetracers, that we have to find somewhere they don't go. Like a mountain road. And by the way, the whole "Beat the heat" and "Keep it on the track" thing is very played out. It really isn't done on a track, and I hope it never will be.
You guys just build your cars differently than we do. I wouldn't go head to head on a dragstrip with a built GTO and expect to win any more than you would go up against one of us in our arena and expect victory.

well note to self.. turn off email notification.. hehe

HEy firehawk,
Why enter anything in NASCAR? it's just the same car under a somewhat different, and ultimately supository-esque body shell. Whats the difference between one NASCAR and the next? And what are the similarities between a Chevy Lumina and a fully tube frame, offset, 454, 4 on the floor NASCAR? Here's the only similarity... the stickers on the front look kind of like the headlights of the lumina. That's about it. "Stock cars". Please. Real racers make left AND right turns.

As far as Nascar goes you obviosly have no clue. Before you bash them get your fact straight. The 454 is a big block engine.great for straight line performace; However Nascar uses small blocks. When was the last time you seen a import in Nascar or any 4 cyl for that mater on the Nascar circuit. Nascar has been around for many years because there is more than you see on the surface. It involes drafting picking the best lines lines saving tires as well as keeping them cool enough to keep traction. Winning may come down to somthing as little as the positions your spark plug gap is at(indexing). Its more than just driving around in circles. As for as excitment it is probably not the most exciting to me; however it is still a good sport.There will always be no replacment for displacment. What would do more damage a pocket knife or a 10 pound sludge hammer. And if it came down to it you could always sharpen the sludge( multi port dual over head cams the list goes on). In drifting imports have had years of experiance but the gto is just new in the market never mind the sport. This car has loads of tire ripping power and torque and it is still naturaly asperated.
There will come a time will the gto will get a win or mabey even dominate the sport. It is just to bad that it is a sport were the crouds and judges are against it. As far as the gto in nascar I belive 2003 was pontiacs last year.