the "problem" with the GTO

Why does the GTO sell in such weak numbers? if we go back to when the original was introduced, it was an option on the bland tempest. you could order it as stripped down or as luxed out as you wanted. the new GTO only comes one way: loaded and expensive. the mustang is most popular in v6 trim, not gt or cobra. what they should do is bring back the LE MANS as a v6 monaro with a cloth interior or maybe a gto without leather(de-contented). sell them for around 25k and you probably couldn't keep them on the lots. this would ensure the GTO a long life as a halo model for the pontiac lineup. pontiac has built a very polarizing car; either you think it's a GTO(or worthy of the name) or you hate it. there is no middle ground. as an old school pontiac guy, I've heard it all about the new age GTO. most cannot stand the idea of an import getting that name, no matter how good the car is. I have a more open mind on this; this car is quicker than ANY stock old school goat :afro: and will out-handle them all too. I also like the fact that it is not a "stand out" car. was the '64 a real flashy car? not really, it was a tempest after all. people loved them because they were affordable and fast, no other reasons need apply. I'll get off the soap box now...what do you think?

Pontiac already has plenty of lesser models boasting V6's, it would only ruin the GTO's image further to offer a base V6 model. Really what you're talking about (I think) is the need for a Camaro/Firebird, a cheap mustang fighter with the basic same engine/tranny as the GTO but less 'flashy'.

Personaly, i'd rather it was somewhat limited and sells fewer vehicles. This makes it that much more valuable and hard to get in future years which keeps the value up for those who may want an older model.

Ya there's already about 3 Million 'Stangs runnin' around out there. And as cool as the Goat is, I don't wanna see a million of those either. Keep it exclusive, keep it cool! :P

Originally posted by PetersonPeleRx8@Sep 27 2004, 03:46 PM
Ya there's already about 3 Million 'Stangs runnin' around out there. And as cool as the Goat is, I don't wanna see a million of those either. Keep it exclusive, keep it cool! :P
Aint that true... I see at least 10 Mustangs a day just in the 96-04 range on my way to or from work, including the parking lot. I've seen mabee a total of 6 GTO's on the street in the year they've been available, if that.

Lucky! Ive only seen 3 GTOs and one was at a car dealer

My personal opinion of the Mustang is that the car is ****... granted the Cobra is fast but.........

The mustangs I have driven are cheap in side and you can tell they are made cheap. This is why they can build a v6 for cheap and a v8 version. I cannot explain what I mean in words but they just seem cheap to me... so a 30K Cobra is a cheap car with a fast engine...if I wanted that I would get a Stage 2 Neon and run 12s.

I like the fact that when you get in a GTO not only is it fast but it feels like a car worthy of a 30K price tag.

just my $.02 worth ;)


It sells in weak Numbers for 2 reasons --

1. In the begining the dealers where greedy F@$*S and marked up anywhere from 5-15K - erm a 42K GTO?!?!?!?! I do not think so - that is Vette territory.
2. Now the sales are growing pretty good because of the rebates and the dealers got their heads out of their butts but word that the 05 is coming with all the "new" features has killed sales once again.

MHO is that once again,again,again The dealers SCREWED GM! I mean look, I also wanted a SSR -- so I goto the Dealer and they want 55K for the thing the sticker is marked up 7K! WTF! now I see they have had 4 on the lot (2 yellow, blue and a black) for weeks now. Greed never pays. Now insted of getting a good price for the SSR the dealer is gonna have to low ball to get rid of them. Gee that is smart business.

Shedgoat,

The idea of a V6 Le Mans or something as a base model to the GTO probably over all isn't a bad idea, but by needing to import the car that concept can't go anywhere for now. The 18,000 per year production run just for the GTO required Holden to do a 3rd shift, i.e. they couldn't do 18,000 GTO's plus XX,000 V6's as well.

As the Zeta platform will be a technology export as well as a car export, and there are a number of US models that will be born from that platform, there might be a chance for some idle GM factories to be retooled to not only produce the buicks etc, but the GTO and a lower end model.

Another thing to consider for weak sales, is absolutely cr*p advertising from Pontiac/GM, there is only one decent GTO ad out and thats the one where the Black GTO does a 180 in the driveway and reverses into the garage. The waiting at the stop light is ok, but its dark and you dont see the car well. Mustangs sell because they are cheap and the name has been around for a while, anything with a Hemi sells because Chrysler/Dodge have been very effective selling the "hemi" engine name, when was the last time you heard someone say "fuel for the soul"... now when was the last time you heard someone say "that thing got a hemi" or "sweeeeet!"... times up! **** you know other than pontiac ads I havent heard anyone say "fuel for the soul"... maybe i was falling asleep because the ads were so lame.

Pontiac needs to get the car on TV so it can be seen clearly, show it driving, show it performing and make the ads more memorable.

More than my 0.02c worth but Lutz got Pontiac the car, Pontiac just doesn't know what to do with it, but then after you have tried to sell Aztecs for a while i guess you cool ideas get sucked out of your brain.

Oh, a Judge model could help things along....you know, I cant afford The Judge model but i can be close with the stock car that looks close.

James

Um... Actually i have said that before (Fuel for the soul) and not long ago... My friend is getting a 95 (i think wuz the year) Trans Am from his dad. Im hoping to get a used 05 GTO for less money than a new GTO and then moddify the s*** out of it.

AS others have said, the V6 GTO idea would cheapen the GTO's image, much as the 1 series is for BMW. GM wants the GTO as a corvette for Pontiac, they don't need to sell very many of them, they are there to establish an image, and that is what they are doing. People who would only buy euro's will look again once they get in a GTO.

If GM came out from the beginning and said they were targeting sales of the GTO at 5,000 units per year and that it would remain a low production high performance car that would focus on quality and everyday useability, I believe this would have helped the overall image of the GTO and squashed many threads about the car not selling well. Bringing out a V6 version of the GTO to bring down the price and help it sell better would kill the car IMO. There are enough posuer cars out there as it is.

I personally don't think there is any problem with the car. It's a specialty car and that is how it should be marketed IMO. Most sports cars/coupes are niche cars in one way or another. The GTO just happens to do many things well and serves as a great daily driver. Marketing the GTO as an exclusive model of Pontiac and the star of their brand would have gone a long way in bolstering the car's image.

My .02

Well if the Australian market is anything to go by, the Monaro was available until last year as a CV6 or CV8. The CV6 was a supercharged 6 and accounted for just 5% of Monaro sales, it has since been dropped from the lineup.

As far as marketing goes, has anyone seen the movie The Last Ride? Seems to me that the entire movie was a commercial.

I agree with the thread poster. Do you think that once Pontiac has "moved" the 2004 inventory off the lots - they will announce that the '04 was a "goof" in order to prop up the 2005??? The changes made in 2005 were out of "neccessity". If they can not sell the 2005 - then what???

Early reports about the GTO said that GM planned a low production version to keep under the radar of Unions who are upset that the GTO is built in a non-union plant.

When GM pointed out to the Union boys that they are limited production numbers and only a two to three year production run and that in 07 they will be built in Hamtramic (union shop), the Union boys backed off.

The new platform GTO (2007) will ramp up in numbers, options, and will be a treat. This one is a neat car and I applaud GM for this 2-door RWD V-8 Coupe. Call it a GTO, Monte Carlo, or Grand Prix...it is a V-8 RWD coupe! Not an F-body with a flimsy unibody...a real V-8 Coupe!!!

Thank you Mr. Lutz...now can we have more please?! How about in the $25k-$28k range!

I did hear that "stuff" about the unions...could very well be true... How could you build "better" power in 2007??? I can't see the GTO at any more than say 425-450 HP...Your going to bump into the Vette territory and mega insurance rates on top of that... You wont get a cheaper better-built car from "America" in 2007...I would say that perhaps 2005/2006 will be the ONLY years' left for the GTO. If I were Lutz I would get a focus-group together - Find out what will "really" sells...perhaps walk away from the GTO and concentrate on the Solistice and an all new (All Wheel Drive) supercharged or turbocharged 6 cylinder car that is perhaps less cheesey than the STI/EVO and more sporty than the GTO...

Interesting point of view...I heard that there are already 500HP GTO mules runnning around Milford...

Not sure about the other models. I'm not a big Miata type car fan...V-8 RWD's are great!

What I mean about 2007 being "better" is that domestic production means shorter shipping time and better production controls, and they will build several cars off the same platform which increases profits...'er, I mean lowers consumer prices...will be fun to watch.

There were issues with Unions early on, but with such low production numbers and Holden's inability to produce large volumes for the US market the unions were easy to placate.

When the GTO is built stateside you can get more variants and more customizing than you can now. The biggest issue on the customizing is the ship time, take this car on the lot or wait 3-4 months and hope the boat doesn't sink on the way over :).

A US plant could if so desired build a V6 and V8 sub GTO coupe ie a le Mans, a Judge, convertibles, etc etc, the stuff that becomes super expensive when trying to do a limited run of say 400 or 1000 cars and then shipping them 10,000 miles.

Also the US plant would do the other models based on the Zeta platform, that way you can boost the numbers up to the 70,000 units plus range. The 18,000 a year from Aus is pushing their production limits and even more so if they need to ramp up production for the Middle East and Asia.

Certainly the 04-06 models are most likely going to be bringing the name back and not a whole lot more, the new platform, US production and more variants based on the Australian engineering should do a lot for Pontiac. Sunroofs, convertibles etc are all ruled out for now because of cost and production issues.

James

Originally posted by CSiJason+Sep 27 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CSiJason @ Sep 27 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-PetersonPeleRx8@Sep 27 2004, 03:46 PM
Ya there's already about 3 Million 'Stangs runnin' around out there. And as cool as the Goat is, I don't wanna see a million of those either. Keep it exclusive, keep it cool! :P
Aint that true... I see at least 10 Mustangs a day just in the 96-04 range on my way to or from work, including the parking lot. I've seen mabee a total of 6 GTO's on the street in the year they've been available, if that. [/b][/quote]
Yep... there's alotta mustangs in Colorado, but in south texas it's just unreal. In corpus christi I swear about 15% of all the cars on the road are mustangs.

And I have only seen one... yep 1... uno.... GTO on the road, and it just happened to be the exact same red GTO that I test drove (I saw it close to the dealer). I've seen more Lambhorgini Gallardo's (2) than I have goats. How sweet is that?

Yeah, out her ein phoenix the same goes for me. Ive seen like 3 lambos (one was in my neighborhood! I was with my friends and we were like HOLY s***!...My one friend who was driving almoast hit it when turning and almoast fliped his truck cuz he drives like a maniac. The car was sweet.

Anyways, ive seen 2 gtos ont he road and one in a dealership (which i wont cound but it did look cool out front the dealership)

Also seen like 3 or 4 ferraris...

seen 2- mine and a yellow one, they had to get my car from 70+ miles away B)

The GTO is a great car... I considered buying one myself, but ultimately decided elsewhere.

The "problem" with the GTO is that it could go on a diet and be faster. It could also handle better... the '05 will surely fix the speed problem, but a 3800 pound curb weight for this car is just unacceptable.

The next problem is that the price is right around 32000. For that similar price, there are many other cars that offer more utility and go just as fast. Think of the STI... I went upwards in price to about 40k and went with the Volvo S60R. This car is about 1 tenth of a second slower to 60 and ties the GTO in the quarter mile at 14 flat. It handles better too and weighs less, has a six-speed, and yes, it's just a Volvo. It also has more interior space and a trunk not harmed by fuel tanks... and four doors and more luxury.

My point is there are just so many other car options out there that the GTO is a hard sale to pitch. There are too many competitors that are close to 32k in price, and too many of them offer just as much if not more... I bet if the price was around the old Camaro Z28 price of 23k or so, it would be flying out the door.

I love GTOs, though. Enjoy your rides.

Originally posted by KMK454@Oct 5 2004, 01:39 PM
There are too many competitors that are close to 32k in price, and too many of them offer just as much if not more...
This statement is absolutely wrong - but people just don't get it. I guarantee that 3 years from now my '04 GTO will be hands down a better vehicle than a single one of those supposed equivalent competitors. The problem is people are looking at the GTO as another disposable POS like most cars - instead of comparing it with the solid, reliable platforms of BMW, Audi and Mercedez that the Monaro was built and targeted for - and from everything down under - compete with. My car has 8500 miles on it on horrible Detroit roads. I don't have a single interior rattle. I've driven and ridden in a large number of newer cars with less miles (my dad worked for GM at pep level and would bring home almost every GM car, as well as a multitude of competitors, all at less than 5k miles) and none of them have been that solid in the interior. But we live in a disposable world, so most people don't get buying a car to keep and drive for a long time.
Now, utility-wise - well, that just isn't what the GTO is about...
Dan

Originally posted by KMK454@Oct 5 2004, 08:39 AM
My point is there are just so many other car options out there that the GTO is a hard sale to pitch. There are too many competitors that are close to 32k in price, and too many of them offer just as much if not more... I bet if the price was around the old Camaro Z28 price of 23k or so, it would be flying out the door.

I love GTOs, though. Enjoy your rides.
I agree the weight is definately a downside that affects both handling and acceleration.
However I disagree with your pricing comment. The average GTO is going out the door for 28-29k or less now, which is quite a distance from 40k. You can consider STi and Evo similar in performance but only if you're willing to sacrifice your clutch/transmission in a dragstrip run (this has been discussed before), most certainly not in everyday driving. The closest direct competition to this car is the G35, about the same or maybe slightly better luxury but no where near the power. If the GTO is over priced at < 30k, what does that make the G35 which costs more? Remember loaded Z28's went for 30k or more 2 years ago...

Originally posted by KMK454@Oct 5 2004, 01:39 PM
The GTO is a great car... I considered buying one myself, but ultimately decided elsewhere.

The "problem" with the GTO is that it could go on a diet and be faster. It could also handle better... the '05 will surely fix the speed problem, but a 3800 pound curb weight for this car is just unacceptable.

The next problem is that the price is right around 32000. For that similar price, there are many other cars that offer more utility and go just as fast. Think of the STI... I went upwards in price to about 40k and went with the Volvo S60R. This car is about 1 tenth of a second slower to 60 and ties the GTO in the quarter mile at 14 flat. It handles better too and weighs less, has a six-speed, and yes, it's just a Volvo. It also has more interior space and a trunk not harmed by fuel tanks... and four doors and more luxury.

My point is there are just so many other car options out there that the GTO is a hard sale to pitch. There are too many competitors that are close to 32k in price, and too many of them offer just as much if not more... I bet if the price was around the old Camaro Z28 price of 23k or so, it would be flying out the door.

I love GTOs, though. Enjoy your rides.
Interesting. Name one in the 32K price range (even less now) that has the quality of ride, handling and speed of the GTO. They migh beat it in one aspect but not even close in all three.
:drunk::drunk:

I have to agree, there is no other car in this price range that can compare to the power, performance, handling and comfort of the GTO.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Sep 27 2004, 11:33 PM
AS others have said, the V6 GTO idea would cheapen the GTO's image, much as the 1 series is for BMW. GM wants the GTO as a corvette for Pontiac, they don't need to sell very many of them, they are there to establish an image, and that is what they are doing. People who would only buy euro's will look again once they get in a GTO.
I agree, a V6 would cheapen the GTOs image and it would never fly. The GTO has always had a V8 and always will.
As for comparing it to the Volvo S60, that car wouldnt even come close to the GTO in the quater mile. Plus who would want 4 doors. 2 doors have always been nicer looking. As for "utility", if you want that get a Sporti Utilty Vechile, many which offer great performance such as the SRX and FX. A real performance car isnt meant to offer alot of utility( although the GTO has a much roomier back seat than the STI or EVO).

Cars competing with the GTO...

The Subaru WRX STi starts at 32k and it will kill the GTO in an autocross. It will probably match it up to the quarter mile as well.

The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo starts at 30k and it will do the same to the GTO that the Subaru can do.

Plus, they both have those all-important hood scoops... but in all seriousness, they also have four doors and what some would consider more aggressive and sporty looks.

There is always the Nissan 350Z. Though slower, they are still fast and fun to drive, and many people would opt for perceived Asian quality over a Pontiac. Many people I know foolishly regard Pontiacs as trashy cars that will fall apart within the first month of ownership... which is why some people will sadly never consider the GTO.

There are many other cars with ballpark performance and utility, like the Volkswagon R32, a used Camaro SS, Mustang Cobra, Mazda RX-8 etc. etc.

If you are willing to throw on a couple extra thousand like I did, you get a whole new slew of cars that can hang with the GTO and offer more (like a sunroof, but hey, even cheaper cars offer those :blink: ). As you approach 40k, you start to get into BMWs, Audis, turbo Volvos, turbo Saabs, some of which are as fast as the GTO, but all of which offer more in terms of luxury options and such. Also, many people go for the whole "prestige" of foreign marques over Pontiac, which many people instantly associate with the Aztek.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the GTO, and I thought long and hard about one. They're great cars. I think the reason more are moving now is because of incentives dropping the price below 30k. If available in the mid 20s, the GTO would be hard to pass up.

Also, don't think I'm advocating any other car here. My favorite cars are Volvos and Camaros. I wouldn't be caught dead in something from Asia (even though those STis are fast!). I thought long and hard about a GTO. It's a great car and a blast to drive. I like the way the 04 looks, single-side exhaust and no scoops. A sleeper that will eat Mustangs unexpectedly... enjoy your cars. Maybe someday in the future I'll park a GTO next to the Volvo.

Well the GTO defintley has more utility than an Fbody or mustang. Both are very small and have almost no backseats( and very uncomptorable front ones for that matter). I think the GTO is a practicle coupe. Most people arent buying one for utility. Of course its not as utility laden as say your volvo but its faster so it depends what u want. I dont know which has better handling?
As for European prestige, id agree somewhat there. The only thing is many GTO buyers are buying this car for not only its own merits but also the fact that its a GTO( the most famous, beloved and respected name in muscle car history).

good post kmk. i agree with a lot of your thoughts. i considered (briefly) the evo and the subaru sti, but in the end decided i didn't want to look like a small, teenage asian boy. bmw and audi to me are overpriced and hyped, the 350z was just too small for me, g35 was a tight squeeze, so really all that was left was a mustang....hmm....i'm happy with my purchase.

Originally posted by KMK454@Oct 5 2004, 02:59 PM
Cars competing with the GTO...

The Subaru WRX STi starts at 32k and it will kill the GTO in an autocross. It will probably match it up to the quarter mile as well.

The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo starts at 30k and it will do the same to the GTO that the Subaru can do.

Plus, they both have those all-important hood scoops... but in all seriousness, they also have four doors and what some would consider more aggressive and sporty looks.

There is always the Nissan 350Z. Though slower, they are still fast and fun to drive, and many people would opt for perceived Asian quality over a Pontiac. Many people I know foolishly regard Pontiacs as trashy cars that will fall apart within the first month of ownership... which is why some people will sadly never consider the GTO.

There are many other cars with ballpark performance and utility, like the Volkswagon R32, a used Camaro SS, Mustang Cobra, Mazda RX-8 etc. etc.

If you are willing to throw on a couple extra thousand like I did, you get a whole new slew of cars that can hang with the GTO and offer more (like a sunroof, but hey, even cheaper cars offer those :blink: ). As you approach 40k, you start to get into BMWs, Audis, turbo Volvos, turbo Saabs, some of which are as fast as the GTO, but all of which offer more in terms of luxury options and such. Also, many people go for the whole "prestige" of foreign marques over Pontiac, which many people instantly associate with the Aztek.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the GTO, and I thought long and hard about one. They're great cars. I think the reason more are moving now is because of incentives dropping the price below 30k. If available in the mid 20s, the GTO would be hard to pass up.

Also, don't think I'm advocating any other car here. My favorite cars are Volvos and Camaros. I wouldn't be caught dead in something from Asia (even though those STis are fast!). I thought long and hard about a GTO. It's a great car and a blast to drive. I like the way the 04 looks, single-side exhaust and no scoops. A sleeper that will eat Mustangs unexpectedly... enjoy your cars. Maybe someday in the future I'll park a GTO next to the Volvo.
The WRX STi is a lot more expensive to upkeep, modify, insure and is a lot less comfortable both in interior 'cush' and ride quality. Plus you'll never find an STi marked down below MSRP unless its used. Add in boy racer looks and it gets too much negative attention from people and police.

Pretty much ditto the above for the lancer but make the interior and ride quality worse even.

The 350Z is a competitor, but seeing as it lacks the all important back seats and is quite a pig for such a small car (it should weigh at least 300lbs less than it does IMO), it isnt a bad option but to upgrade it to the same trim level as the base GTO the price jumps dramaticly. Ditto that for the G35 but make the price higher but fit and finish higher also. Again, dramatic good looks but almost to the point it gets negative attention on the road.

GTO on the other hand is pretty much the nicest mix between performance, comfort, quality and useability you can get for the money. More so with the 05 which bumps the bar a good bit. Plus it doesnt stand out too much in a croud, but it doesnt get lost either. Funny thing is, I had highly considered all of the above vehicles before doing the research and making the decision to save and wait for the 05 GTO.

You compare the R32, Mustang Cobra, RX-8 and Camaro SS but I think each of those falls into a completely different catagory than the GTO. Both the Camaro and Cobra suffer from butt pounding rides and less than quality, lower comfort interiors. The R32 though nice isnt very quick and being a VW, expect it to have problems often. The RX-8 hardly impressed me, and its ugly IMO. Plus it sounds like a sewing machine on speed. At least a big V8 sounds as bad a** as it is.

Originally posted by nick_the_brit@Oct 5 2004, 05:31 PM
good post kmk. i agree with a lot of your thoughts. i considered (briefly) the evo and the subaru sti, but in the end decided i didn't want to look like a small, teenage asian boy. bmw and audi to me are overpriced and hyped, the 350z was just too small for me, g35 was a tight squeeze, so really all that was left was a mustang....hmm....i'm happy with my purchase.
Im 6'4 and i felt pretty comftorable in the G35 but i think the GTO is a little bit more comftorable. The 350Z was small and didnt have a back seat so i never considered it.

64gto- 100 bucks says you couldn't get in the back seat of a g35 without a can opener...

Just for clarifacation, the STI does 13.0 @ 101-02 while a faster 1/4 it is well know that they are ralley cars and geared for short straight bursts, not long highway runs, and as such they are quick to the 1/4 but often run out of gearing in the higher speeds where the GTO and other LS1 cars dominate.

The GTO MSRP of 32K is a nice mix, the cobra is faster but has a harsh ride and a laughable interrior, the 350z is cheaper and has a good interrior but is slower, the G35 is the cloesest comparison, but it isn't as fast and is a bit more expensive. In the begining the GTO was marked up to 40K but as it is MSRP is a good deal, and the mid-high 20's have been getting them for now is a bargin.

Originally posted by nick_the_brit@Oct 5 2004, 11:54 PM
64gto- 100 bucks says you couldn't get in the back seat of a g35 without a can opener...
I never tried the back of the coupe( the back of the sedan was pretty nice). The GTO has a great back seat, i fit nicley only its a pain and the a** to get in and out of especially since i have a bad back and flexing to get in and out is not smart. The G35 coupe back seat isnt huge but still is bigger than a cobra or fbody.
As for the STI and EVO, there quater mile times have been all over, depending on the road test, ive seen them from 13 flat to low 14s depending on the magazine. I really dont know what to believe. I think the GTO and either of the cars, both with equal drivers would be a pretty good matchup. The better driver would proably win

Nice opinion KMK454. I agree with your line of thinking. I'm a former 1968 GTO'er (chrome front end, 4 speed, 400 ci big block) and would be today if some old smuck hadn't totalled me out years ago. Two seater cars, although I would thouroghly enjoy one, aren't practical for me. I need something that I could get the kid in and go on vacation (or I'd have me an '05 Vette). Being an former GTO owner of a vintage muscle car I expected Pontiac to put more thought into the product. This was obvious a quick, get-it-out-without-a-lot-of design-dollars kinda of project. I would have much preferred Pontiac to put a few ounces of effort in the design to bring back some retro appearance. Ford has done this with great results in the new '05 Mustang. Believe me, the new Mustang will sell A LOT. Pontiac needs to get on board quick. Dodge is coming out with new models to compete against the GTO...the Charger and the new Magnum SRT (said to be at about 425 hp). Also, the Crystler 300C SRT. These are cars that, if not built to look cheap, will pull potential GTO owners away. I, too, like the Subaru but it just seems that the 4-cylinder cars are going to get hurt if they keep trying to act like the big V-8s. If I wanted the sound of a 4-cyl and it's peppiness I'd by a croch-rocket. Because of my ties to my old Goat I'm, so far, staying the course and will probably end up with the '05 GTO...unless of course I hear by spring '05 a new "Judge" is coming out. Anyway, there's my two cents worth. Bottom line: Pontiac got lazy and let the other major American automakers get ahead in line.

The Judge wont be introduced by at least earliest 2007.

The Point of the GTO was to get a Halo car out, IMMEDIATELY, at the time there wasnt a single V8 available in Pontiac's lineup. Luts felt it was more important to get a V8 sports car into the lineup then it was to design a retro styled car.

one of the contributing factors of the Lack of retro styling is that Pontiac wants a car that can go through the ages again, not a retro fad that will burn itself out in a few years like EVERY SINGLE RETRO CAR has done to date. there will be just under a score of 1 million mustangs by the end of the decade that are all based on this current style, with "no major updates" planned. People are going to get tired of it and want something else. The GTO will keep getting refreashened and get a complete redesign in 2007. I applaud Pontiac for NOT going retro just for a cheap quick sales boost. It prooves that they dont want to sell out and just make money, but want a car that performes, and makes an image.

I see your position Nocturn. I can appreciate owning a car that is not a "common" car like the Mustang is anticipated to be. On the other hand -- from the business perspective -- who do you think will be reaping greater profits by the end of the year? decade? The money to be made from selling a score less then 1 million cars will fund researchers and designers to come up with the next "new Mustang". There will be incentive there! The new Mustang is just that...new. I wouldn't expect Ford to have any new major updates planned yet; they don't need to! When the time comes for a revamp I'm sure Ford will be ready (just like Chevy did with the new Vette). The more Mustangs and other like cars sold, the less $$ Pontiac will make...supply and demand. Others like the Dodge Magnum SRT will certainly pull family type muscle-car-dads away from the GTO. I've certainly considered the Magnum but I'm a former Goat owner and it's in my blood. Please understand, I am a bit selfish here and would like nothing more than to own a car that very few people have; it makes it more of a speciality car. :knightrider: This just adds to my desire for the Goat. One nice thing about the GTO: We'll never see it at the rental car lot! Cheers.

True True, but with a maximum of 18,000 unis, the GTO was never meant to be a mass produced money maker like the Mustang is. Pontiac is making money off the GTO, they are making it off the G6, and the Grand Prix.

The amount should stay around 10k per year, and keep the car completely unique. That number would be equivalent to the SVT Cobra (not all Mustangs) and old WS6 (which isn't all Firebirds either).

If someone wants a more stripped down car, Pontiac makes plenty of other models that fit the bill better.

The nameplate "GTO" was not a critical factor in my buying decision.

It didn't hurt, but the car stood on its own.

Also, it is the only car, so far as I know, that is imported from Australia. I like that unique pedigree but, again, not critical.

The last GM car I owned was a Cosworth Vega.

The Monaro in Oz is not a boy-racer in the likes of a Subaru Impreza turbo or any other high powered tinny hatchback. It is a large comfortable coupe with ample grunt, designed for the thrill of the ride, without jarring your bones. Its not really meant to be a white-knuckle racer.
The reasons for the lack-luster sales performance thus far are complex and, from what I've read, has a lot to do with dealer and marketing issues in addition to a parochial sense of loyalty to "American-made". The problem with that argument is that Americans are just shooting themselves in the foot by boycotting the GTO and moving on to a Japanese or European product. Remember, Holden's full name is "GM Holden" - It is, ultimately, a US company.

Before I bought my GTO, I looked/drove the following cars (some of them several times):

'04 Grand Prix CompG
'04 CTS (not CTS-V)
'04 STi
'04 Evo
'04 300C
'04 350Z
'04 G35
'04 Dodge Neon SRT-4
'03 Acura RSX Type-S

At the time I had an '02 GTP, which was a pretty great car and after modding it, it was seriously quick.

I chose the GTO. Why?

1) Better quality than all but the CTS
2) Faster than all but the Evo and STi (and faster on the top end)
3) Limited production vehicle
4) 5.7L of displacement
5) A backseat
6) At $26k, it was the best quality/performance buy

With what I know about the marketplace, the only cars I would consider now would be the '05 Mustang GT (although I'm pretty sure I would still choose a GTO['04 or '05]), an '05 GTO and the Evo MR. If I could get the '05 GTO at the mid-20s like I did my '04, there's no contest.

Jagular pretty much sums up my thoughts on it and almost the same list of vehicles I had considered myself.

interesting to see how this thread progressed...originaly, I brought this topic up because I'm affraid that GM would kill the GTO because of lacluster sales. remember, this was the excuse they gave when they killed the f-body. hey I own a '68 myself and personaly love the nugoat. as far as competitors..there are none. name me one v8 rwd 2door grand touring coupe for under 50k!! possibly the cobra, but it still is a pony car in my book...ride not good enough, interior not nice enough... the comparisons with the chryco hemi sedans...very nice cars...but people looking at the gto are probably not cross-shoping with these. I already own a minivan... I want a stylish, comfortable, fast, and exclusive statement. I already see too many 300c with chrome 20's rolling around...

The only problem with the GTO is there's not one in my driveway! :afro:

Originally posted by Tamatt27@Oct 19 2004, 09:23 PM
The only problem with the GTO is there's not one in my driveway! :afro:
word

Look, there are several keys for me. At 6'4" and 270lbs. ( down from 299 ), the current Mustang is waaaaayyyy too small. The GTO has EXTREMELY comfortable seats for me. Add to that a proven and reliable engine and drivetrain, which has an incredible amount of mods readily available ( horsepower is only a matter of money. ), and the knowledge that only 18,000 of them out this year puts us in some pretty exclusive territory. I live in South Florida, and you can't spit in any direction without hitting a Mustang. To date, the only Other GTO I have seen on the road was a guy on a test drive! I went to a Ford dealership yesterday morning to check out the '05 Mustang and it is a beauty. However, two things bothered me from the start. 1) In spite of the new, extra medium size, I had claustraphobia of the legs. 2) The interior plastic made me feel as if it were 1979 all over again. Yes, they probably will sell every one the can make.............and instead of running with the mob I will be part of a Band of Brothers.

Originally posted by Jagular@Oct 15 2004, 04:24 PM
Before I bought my GTO, I looked/drove the following cars (some of them several times):

'04 Grand Prix CompG
'04 CTS (not CTS-V)
'04 STi
'04 Evo
'04 300C
'04 350Z
'04 G35
'04 Dodge Neon SRT-4
'03 Acura RSX Type-S

At the time I had an '02 GTP, which was a pretty great car and after modding it, it was seriously quick.

I chose the GTO. Why?

1) Better quality than all but the CTS
2) Faster than all but the Evo and STi (and faster on the top end)
3) Limited production vehicle
4) 5.7L of displacement
5) A backseat
6) At $26k, it was the best quality/performance buy

With what I know about the marketplace, the only cars I would consider now would be the '05 Mustang GT (although I'm pretty sure I would still choose a GTO['04 or '05]), an '05 GTO and the Evo MR. If I could get the '05 GTO at the mid-20s like I did my '04, there's no contest.
At 26k, you got a great deal. That's what the car should be from the get go. None of this 33k nonsense. Once the car makes it over $30k, the GTO is priced in the wrong league IMO.

since i first layed my eyes on the monaro and GTO, it was love at first sight. there is very little about the car that i do not like. i'm extremelly impressed with its build quality and i love its styling. ok so its not THE fastest sports car you can get for $32,000...who cares when you got everything that the GTO offers? It produces performance times almost identical to those of the much smaller and less equipped Mach 1 (which i also love). but think about it. The GTO is not a small car, and thats one of the parts that i love about it. living in iowa, i'm on the highway A LOT, within about 3-4 years our vehciles have in excess of 120 and 130,000 miles on them, i want something that is not only comfortable, but something that will LAST. for me, the GTO fits the bill perfectly. Its got a very spacious interior with perfectly shaped seats, a functional and very tasteful dash, and sleek styling. i hate when people just complain and complain about GTOs styling. man, hood scoops and body cladding do absolutly NOTHING (unless you have a real shaker or blower on your car) so whats the point?! with my mustang i loved its styling, but all those hood scoops and body cladding do nothing more than create excess wind noise and collect water. when you on the highway at 70mph, i dont think that stuff really matters, and personally i dont care. the sleek styling of the GTO looks like its in motion even when its standing still, it looks great crusing down the interstate. the GTO is an attractive car to look at, and it's hard for anyone to dismiss the car as "ugly" and Holden's build quality is something the north american GM name plate has never dreamed of. its solid, it doesn't squeek and is beautifuly crafted with high quality materials that are pleasant to touch and look at, and with matching leathers, suede, and guages to match the exterior, its even colorful. and at 29 mpg with a six speed? you can even call it practical.

after test driving the car, researching it heavily from both american and australian reviews, its with out a doubt one of the best sports cars you can buy...its alot of car for the money. no other car currently sold for $32,000 packs as much performance, luxury, or quality that i know of.

hey whitehall , can't believe there is some else out there to have owned a c.v . in fact when i got my goat i had to finally sell #3231 to make room for the goat , 2081 75's made and 1446 76's made , you guys can't imagine how much of a loss g.m. took on those ! all remaining motors were destroyed at a 50g loss, anyways good to here some one else has owned one , they were very unique that is for sure! although i did own 4 of them ! also saw a commercial last night for jeep , well seems it now is availible with a HEMI , talk about over use of a name! i wonder if the older mopar fanatics like the fact that now the term hemi is used on just about everything in chryslers showrooms, bye bye exclusivity !

Yea like said before and several other times, adding a v6 base model would ruin the new gtos image. Right now the gto is doing great, and yes i talked to a guy at the beliot autoramma, and he had a 69 judge that pontiac used for their movie "The Last Ride" and he told me pontiac has plans for new options. (has anyone herd of the ram air VI concept?). Anyways, Pontiac might be realesing anouther high performance car(they have plans for the zeta frame in 06) who knows it could be for the GTO, who knows ive seen a camaro concept drawing but not a firebird, i figure if GM realeses a camaro for 06 then the firebird will come right along with it.

Originally posted by thegreatone@Oct 26 2004, 05:56 PM
Yea like said before and several other times, adding a v6 base model would ruin the new gtos image. Right now the gto is doing great, and yes i talked to a guy at the beliot autoramma, and he had a 69 judge that pontiac used for their movie "The Last Ride" and he told me pontiac has plans for new options. (has anyone herd of the ram air VI concept?). Anyways, Pontiac might be realesing anouther high performance car(they have plans for the zeta frame in 06) who knows it could be for the GTO, who knows ive seen a camaro concept drawing but not a firebird, i figure if GM realeses a camaro for 06 then the firebird will come right along with it.
no the firebird is gone and no talk about bringing it back. The GTO is planned to be the new camaros stable mate.

64 is on the money with that one, the GTO is moving to the Zeta platform in 06 MY 07, and is going to be paired up with a chevy performance coupe, That starts with a C, BUT there is also a possibility of a Camaro on a stretched Kappa platform paired up with a Pontiac twin based off the holden Toranna (sp?) TT36 concept.

One thing is for sure is that in one form...Platform that is (get it) or another the Camaro will be back, where in the Bird will not.

the 64 gto was very flashy in 64

As for the rest...............

The CAMARO is returning

Based on the exact same platform as the GTO

The Conceptual Camaros look incredibly good
they did what ford did with the mustang and what was missed with the gto
The camaro will kick serious a**
I also saw a firebird based off the camaro, it looked like a 67 or 8
it ok but the lines were a little hazy
a 70s style would be better

The 07 GTO's are still shady
concepts ive seen fail to motivate me, the same look of the new goats but smaller which i dont like, unless they build that RA6
from the woodward event im fairly distant unless these 05 can pick it back up

Originally posted by Firehawk@Nov 3 2004, 04:44 PM
As for the rest...............

The CAMARO is returning

Based on the exact same platform as the GTO

The Conceptual Camaros look incredibly good
they did what ford did with the mustang and what was missed with the gto
The camaro will kick serious a**
I also saw a firebird based off the camaro, it looked like a 67 or 8
it ok but the lines were a little hazy
a 70s style would be better

The 07 GTO's are still shady
concepts ive seen fail to motivate me, the same look of the new goats but smaller which i dont like, unless they build that RA6
from the woodward event im fairly distant unless these 05 can pick it back up
Where did you see these concepts?

Steve

He is most likely talking about 4th gen retro cars that were made during the last years as there are no actual camaro/firebird concepts out yet.

As for the Camaro, there is no evidence it will be retro at all, as its not what is missed with the GTO at all. GM is smart to not make a retro car that will be mass prodcued as it wont fall out of favor in 2-3 years like the stang will.

Lets hope this doesnt turn into another flame war.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Nov 3 2004, 08:49 PM
He is most likely talking about 4th gen retro cars that were made during the last years as there are no actual camaro/firebird concepts out yet.

As for the Camaro, there is no evidence it will be retro at all, as its not what is missed with the GTO at all. GM is smart to not make a retro car that will be mass prodcued as it wont fall out of favor in 2-3 years like the stang will.

Lets hope this doesnt turn into another flame war.
I know the cars you are talking about. That blue/yellow Camaro and that white/blue Trans Am.

I didn't think he was talking about these because he said the Firebird looked like a 67/68 while the concept from a couple years ago took most of it's styling ques from the 70 TA.

But it thats what he was talking about ...

Steve

I don't see the Volvo S60R comparison at all (just so you know, the 2005 does the 1/4 in 13.0) and I've driven them both, but you are correct that there is a lot of customer choice in the mid-30s price range. I think the power increase for 2005 will help solidify the GTO proposition to buyers - very high-performance, room for four adults and quality build.
The next generation design should quiet those who think the current car is a little too tame and those who want more options, but we'll all have to wait on that one.

I think most people would agree that the major problem with the current GTO is really not performance or price but exterior styling. The car was already a couple of model years old in Australia when it hit US shores and the American market is much more competitive. Throw in the fact that most expected to see design cues from the old GTOs (which weren't there) and you have a pretty good explanation for a sales problem in a sporty coupe.

Anyone who thinks there is any comparison with a 2005 GTO and the Volvo S60R just hasn't driven both cars. I have (the Volvo at Thunderhill Raceway in a press review) and they are both good cars but are just so different in character, mostly due to the super-torquey LS2 V8. And about that $40k price tag.....

Originally posted by CSiJason@Sep 27 2004, 02:56 PM
Personaly, i'd rather it was somewhat limited and sells fewer vehicles. This makes it that much more valuable and hard to get in future years which keeps the value up for those who may want an older model.
yup i want the gto to be rare i dont want to see a handfull in 1 day like the mustangs i saw 4 05s yesterday.and no base models v6s either that would just ruin the name gto :type:

im only 1 of 2 gto's in my town of 80,000 and the other doesnt ever get driven

Originally posted by 04LS1GOAT@Dec 26 2004, 01:21 PM
yup i want the gto to be rare i dont want to see a handfull in 1 day like the mustangs i saw 4 05s yesterday.and no base models v6s either that would just ruin the name gto :type:

im only 1 of 2 gto's in my town of 80,000 and the other doesnt ever get driven
[Although we don't own one yet] we like it that the GTO isn't that popular. That way when we leave them in the dust they'll be going "what the heck was THAT?" :)

I just drove a 6-speed '04 for the first time and I've got mixed feelings, mostly stemming from the progression of cars I've owned:

1967 Buick Wildcat (torque monster)
1965 Chrysler 300
1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R
2002 Subaru WRX
2004 Toyota Tacoma (4 cyl/5speed-- don't ask)
2005 Toyota Tundra (282 HP/5-speed auto in a 2WD long bed; surprisingly quick)

That's not all of them but, after being weened on V-8 performance, the above cars and others, the GTO should be the car for me. The Subaru, however, was a blast, and except for a tranny overhaul (not uncommon with early cars) was an incredible driving experience. It did everything well and compared to the "Duke Boys" maneuvers I performed in my old Buick, this type of a performance car (rally-bred as it were) was an eye-opener on country roads. The Mitsubishi Evo that I drove awhile back raised the bar even higher.

I'm 36 and my interest in V-8s had pretty much been relegated to the likes of my current '58 Olds or my brother's '68 442 until the coming of the GTO. Getting to the point, some of us that have grown up with the muscle cars of the 60s aren't sure if we need what amounts to the evolution of the muscle car in our driveway now-- as a daily driver. Light, nimble fuel efficient cars make a lot of sense and can also appeal to enthisiasts if given enough guts, the Acura RSX-S comes to mind. Guys my own age that I know seem to fall into one camp or the other, "import" performance or domestic, usually Mustangs, and I find myself on the fence. With the deals I've seen on '04s though, I think I know which side I'll be falling on...

I can see that point, but I think compared to the EVo, or STI that the GTO is a better daily driver.

Who said a daily driver can't have a V8.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 26 2004, 11:29 PM
I can see that point, but I think compared to the EVo, or STI that the GTO is a better daily driver.

Who said a daily driver can't have a V8.
Mine does :D

Guys my own age that I know seem to fall into one camp or the other, "import" performance or domestic, usually Mustangs, and I find myself on the fence. With the deals I've seen on '04s though, I think I know which side I'll be falling on...


I'm 34 and I see your 36, so I think I would fit into the "Guys my own age" category.

I'm in the domestic performance camp, but would rather have the plague than a Crustang in my driveway. The GTO is a totally different beast than an STI or Evo. The GTO is flat out fun to drive and has a classy and well made interior. So if I may be so bold, get off that fence and come on over to the GTO corner of the domestic side. Leave all the pony boys to themselves and drive something with some individuality and taste. Leave the pocket rockets to the boy racers and the Rustangs to the "sheep". You know you want to. ;)

Originally posted by Orbit Orange@Dec 28 2004, 10:21 AM
Guys my own age that I know seem to fall into one camp or the other, "import" performance or domestic, usually Mustangs, and I find myself on the fence. With the deals I've seen on '04s though, I think I know which side I'll be falling on...


I'm 34 and I see your 36, so I think I would fit into the "Guys my own age" category.

I'm in the domestic performance camp, but would rather have the plague than a Crustang in my driveway. The GTO is a totally different beast than an STI or Evo. The GTO is flat out fun to drive and has a classy and well made interior. So if I may be so bold, get off that fence and come on over to the GTO corner of the domestic side. Leave all the pony boys to themselves and drive something with some individuality and taste. Leave the pocket rockets to the boy racers and the Rustangs to the "sheep". You know you want to. ;)
I am 34 also... and Orbit I agree with you 100%

Jizzer I hope we haven't scared DrOlds away.

Maybe he's out buying an 04 right now. :D

Nope, you haven't scared me away :P

I'll probably pull the trigger this weekend. The GTO reflects my character more I think, is a great driving car and, as much as I hate the concept of projecting an image, fits my mature, professional status :D The "ricer" image is an unfortunate outcome of the preception of essentaily good cars (the Sti and Evo). Most people can't differentiate between these cars and a 4 cyl. Cavalier with an add-on aluminum wing...

However, if any of you guys and girls get the opportunity to drive an Evo --I mean really drive it-- jump on it. If you just put around or just wind it up through the gears in a straight line you miss half the potential. Carving corners in that beast an adrenaline rush of a different kind. However, like most of us out of our 20s, we would like a more well-rounded car if we're making the payments. Also, anyone that's been keeping up with Mitsubishi's financial situation or has known someone who's had a bad experience with one of their cars would have second thoughts.

I can't wait to post "I bought one!" To be continued...

Alright another convert.

We are looking forward to your "Just bought my GTO" thread.

:D

Originally posted by rlsedition@Dec 20 2004, 09:26 PM
Anyone who thinks there is any comparison with a 2005 GTO and the Volvo S60R just hasn't driven both cars. I have (the Volvo at Thunderhill Raceway in a press review) and they are both good cars but are just so different in character, mostly due to the super-torquey LS2 V8. And about that $40k price tag.....
Never compared the 05 to the Volvo, as the 05 GTO is way faster. They really don't match up at all.

The 04 is different. It's still faster, but not by that much. But both cars are much different in character. I was looking at GTOs when 33k was a good price (just after the end of the dealer mark-up period). 40k wasn't that big of a jump for me, and for that jump, I ended up with a car that in the straightline is only a tad slower but offered more in terms of options/luxury/etc (sunroof, nav system, heated seats, larger backseat and trunk, a different class in terms of materials and build quality). For some this is not important, but for me it was. The handling may be better and the braking may be too... I'm not sure. It's at least comparable. I found both the GTO and the Volvo to be very unique cars that offer a lot more than their competitors do in their respective price-range.

But regardless, GTOs can be easily modded, much more easily than my car. You guys can get an 04 running 13 flat with a few simple additions to the car, and an 05 runs 13 flat stock... I'm happy with what I have, and I'd pick it over the GTO again. But I still want a GTO anyway :P And a Camaro, and an M3, and a Corvette, and another Volvo... I just love cars! I'm a Volvo/GM enthusiast. And you're lucky, having driven my car at Thunderhill. I want to take it to a road course so badly...

but a 3800 pound curb weight for this car is just unacceptable.

Considering that the mustang cobra weigh at around the same mark as the GTO, its surprising that you never hear people compain about its handling and weight issues................i see double standards here.

I say f^%k america and send the rest of the GTO's back to australia and to europe. Many here in aust feel ripped off by GM. The monaro name is similar to the GTO name, it means alot to Australians. Seeing your car getting bagged unfairly just pissed me off.

What other car can compete with the GTO? certainly not the mustang (already had a serious recall).

monaroCountry, I share your frustration with the poor sales acceptance of the GTO in the US. No one should be that surprised, however:
1. We got the car here after you had it in your market for a couple of model years. So the styling was not really "fresh"
2. Coupes tend to sell on styling. If the buyers think you are not "on trend", you're dead in the marketplace.
3. The US market is much tougher competitively than yours (where are your G35 Infiniti coupes, for instance?). And I didn't see many Mustangs either.
4. The US expectations for sales were pretty high versus the Monaro.
5. Due to the plant build schedule in Oz, we get our first new cars to sell in the dead of winter (and we really have winter) - not favorable for the US amrket
6. Some dealers tended to gouge buyers in price, asking over sticker.

Many lessons to be learned here, but one has burned itself into my brain: you can't just take a car from one market and drop it into another without understanding the market differences. Then your need to make those changes to the car if you expect it to do well. If not, don't do it.

The fact of the matter is, a great car is a great car, whether it is a Monaro or GTO or whatever, and people who know what they want will buy it. I applaud their good taste and my own. Instead of lusting after the unobtainable, I have my Holden/ Vauxhall/Pontiac GTO. Win,win!!!

i don't see a problem with the "flashyness" of it or the "expense of it"...i'm 21 years old and just bought an 05 gto w/ 275 miles on it last week with 0 down and no co-signer..and very limited credit......if someone is looking for economy or "value" they need to buy a kia or civic........

i don't see a problem with the "flashyness" of it or the "expense of it"...i'm 21 years old and just bought an 05 gto w/ 275 miles on it last week with 0 down and no co-signer..and very limited credit......if someone is looking for economy or "value" they need to buy a kia or civic........

Dang man.. what kinda payments are you lookin at there? Actually, more importantly, how can you AFFORD them? I just turned 21 yesterday and I've been saving up for months to get a down payment sizeable enough to put my payments around 400 a month so that I can actually afford all the expenses w/ this car. Also, have you looked into the insurance? I've did some checking online, mainly with the likes of progressive, state farm, allstate, ect. and never found anything under 200 a month. Hopefully I can find something cheaper with a lesser known company. Anyhow, congrats on your purchase man! I test drove one for the 1st time the other day, and it's safe to say I'll have one as soon as I find the right deal on a lightly used one. Can't wait!

Hopefully I can find something cheaper with a lesser known company. Anyhow, congrats on your purchase man! I test drove one for the 1st time the other day, and it's safe to say I'll have one as soon as I find the right deal on a lightly used one. Can't wait!

Just be careful when choosing an insurance company. I was in the same situation in 1998. I wanted a Z28, but the insurance was very high. I was 21-years-old. I ended up buying a Camaro with the 3.8-liter V6. I purchased insurance with Allstate and it has proven to be a wise choice. When my Camaro was stolen in 2004 they took care of me. Now they insure my 2004 GTO!

Just be careful when choosing an insurance company. I was in the same situation in 1998. I wanted a Z28, but the insurance was very high. I was 21-years-old. I ended up buying a Camaro with the 3.8-liter V6. I purchased insurance with Allstate and it has proven to be a wise choice. When my Camaro was stolen in 2004 they took care of me. Now they insure my 2004 GTO!

Yeah I hear you man, my first car (which I still own and drive) is a silver '95 camaro convertible. It's also a v-6 because I'm sure the insurance on a v-8 would've really killed me a few years back, seeing as how much the gto will wind up costing me now with a clean record and a few years of experience. I'll definitely choose wisely.

Kinda of funny, my insurance went down when I bought the GTO, didn't go down a lot, but it still went down. But I also use a military exclusive insurance company, so that could be the reason.

Kinda of funny, my insurance went down when I bought the GTO, didn't go down a lot, but it still went down. But I also use a military exclusive insurance company, so that could be the reason.

I pay about $50./month to cover my Goat, and that includes the highest liability coverage available.

But, guess I have an "advantage" (?!) over most of you.....age (as in "old"!).

BTW, the Goat isn't the only thing I have that's silver!

JJay's right, using USAA has it's advantages. I couldn't afford to insure 4 vehicles if it wasn't for them.

But as to this post, if GM had put the 05 styling out in 04, the results would have been slightly better. But between the price gouging and intended low volume as "filler" car that we now know it was intended to be there's no surprise that it's going away. But it has been fun reading about the speculations about "Judge" models and such from almost a year ago. Maybe with the 08 model year (closing my eyes tightly while crossing my fingers). Either way, can't wait to get back and drive my car, the year over here is almost up.....getting jitters just thinking about it, lol.

But it has been fun reading about the speculations about "Judge" models and such from almost a year ago.

I could go for a "Judge" model with a 7+ liter engine putting out about 600 Hp, with a set of 315 series tires tucked up under the rear fenders...man-o-man, I have to wipe the drool from my chin. :D

-K

I could go for a "Judge" model with a 7+ liter engine putting out about 600 Hp, with a set of 315 series tires tucked up under the rear fenders...man-o-man, I have to wipe the drool from my chin. :D

-K

Just for the sake of conversation, what would you pay for a 600hp Judge?

$45k? $50k?

Just curious.

Steve

Just for the sake of conversation, what would you pay for a 600hp Judge?

$45k? $50k?

Just curious.

Steve

Hmmm? That is a very good question. I do not know what I would be willing to pay. This is due to the fact that I do no know what other niceties come with the horsepower (i.e., big brakes, tuned suspension, convertible vs hardtop, etc.). If we are talking about the same basic GTO with a bigger engine and drivetrain to match, I would pay $45K...no problem. :D

-K

Ya know, the ONLY thing I absolutely HATE about my GTO is the RADIO controls on the g*d****ed steering wheel. What kinda drugs were they taking when they came up with THAT idea? Shouldn't the CRUISE CONTROL controls be there instead? WTF buys a 350-400hp V8 RWD car so they can listen to the ^%&^$$% RADIO? NOT ME. And I HATE how the cruise controls work. Other than that, I'm good. ;-)

i bet there would be a list for a $50k judge. look at the gt500 coming out people are paying 15-25k just to get on the list and thats a 475-500 hp car. the sticker on the gt 500 will be mid 40s. A guy i work with got a deposit on one and they have just recently told him its going to cost him 10k over the sticker if he still wants the car!!!its not even like its that limited a production run at 10,000 units.

I like the stereo controls on the wheel I tend to use them far more than I would if they were cruise control buttons. stereo controls on the steering wheel have been around for quite some time and are not limited to this car or gm for that matter. as a matter a fact the mercury marauder had not only stereo but the climate controls on there.eventually the performance factor wears off you know like when your sitting at stoplights in traffic watching the gas gauge sinking quickly towards the E and you just want to listen to the radio and forget the next fillup at $50-$60.lol

my pet peave is the ****ed door lock button or lack thereof. which i hear they fixed on the 06s. Every time you get someone new in the car and you stop at a store or something and dont put it in park watch the passenger as they frantically look for this missing peice of equipment .its quite a chuckle.

Ya know, the ONLY thing I absolutely HATE about my GTO is the RADIO controls on the g*d****ed steering wheel. What kinda drugs were they taking when they came up with THAT idea? Shouldn't the CRUISE CONTROL controls be there instead? WTF buys a 350-400hp V8 RWD car so they can listen to the ^%&^$$% RADIO? NOT ME. And I HATE how the cruise controls work. Other than that, I'm good. ;-)

LOL! Hehehe. I can't stop laughing. Are we a sad crew, or what? I drove all over town today, shifting up and down through the gears as I went. Now I am not getting on it all of the time (only every now and again), but I do run the RPM's up a little higher than necessary (maybe 2500-2750 RPM). The whole time I am doing this I have the radio turned off so that I can listen to my car.

BTW: Does cruise control work at 150 MPH? :D

-K

I have had my GTO for almost 2 years now...even though it only has 7,000 miles on it...I bet the radio hasn't played for an hour, total. When I bought it, the dealer kept using the radio as their justification for NOT coming off the price. I told em to take it OUT. LMFAO! They all just looked at each other.

I have had my GTO for almost 2 years now...even though it only has 7,000 miles on it...I bet the radio hasn't played for an hour, total. When I bought it, the dealer kept using the radio as their justification for NOT coming off the price. I told em to take it OUT. LMFAO! They all just looked at each other.

You've got to be crazy, man! That is a 200W Blaupunkt Surround Sound entertainment system in there! Maybe I have just haven't kept up with the times, but WTF is Blaupunkt? I have never heard of such an animal until the GTO. Does Blaupunkt make a high quality stereo? I mean, for as little as I listen to mine, it sounds ok to me.

-K

I'm serious...the radio in that car is THE LAST thing I think about when I go drive it. I basically DO NOT use it. That car is like my own personal amusement park ride. The radio is a mere disctraction (if it's on).

AHH, music, depends on the mood. If I'm out hunting, I'll put on something to get me in the right frame of mind, but when it comes to a actual kill, it goes off. Or to drown out those worthless fart-cans. On the subject of cruise control, rarely use it, its like surrendering!!!;)

I'm serious...the radio in that car is THE LAST thing I think about when I go drive it. I basically DO NOT use it. That car is like my own personal amusement park ride. The radio is a mere disctraction (if it's on).

To each his own and if you like to hear the car play the same ole tune for ya then enjoy but Id rather hear the stereo most of the time.although i will admit the gto does play a nice tune .

You've got to be crazy, man! That is a 200W Blaupunkt Surround Sound entertainment system in there! Maybe I have just haven't kept up with the times, but WTF is Blaupunkt? I have never heard of such an animal until the GTO. Does Blaupunkt make a high quality stereo? I mean, for as little as I listen to mine, it sounds ok to me.

-K

blaupunkt is a good stereo . they come in some of the european cars. The unit in the gto is mediocre as far as power goes.I still use the blaupunkt hu but run an alpine 5 channel amp powering all jl audio speakers/subs. it sounds much much better now.

I really do want to clarify that to a certain extent I was not being facetious. Before the GTO I had never heard of a Blaupunkt stereo. For me, like Mechanic58, this was not a major selling point for the GTO. For my purposes, the Blaupunkt serves me well, but the dealer really does not have much of a bargaining chip. :)

-K

The sound system wasn't a factor for me in buying the GTO. I upgraded the other systems in past cars, because they sucked. This system is fine by me and I most likely won't do anything to it. Plus, who wants the added weight of a bunch of amps and sub-woofers. Most of the time I like to listen to the pipes anyway.

I really do want to clarify that to a certain extent I was not being facetious. Before the GTO I had never heard of a Blaupunkt stereo. For me, like Mechanic58, this was not a major selling point for the GTO. For my purposes, the Blaupunkt serves me well, but the dealer really does not have much of a bargaining chip. :)

-K

They certainly dont the 200w blaupunkt system in the gto is really not that great. its adaquate at best.

The sound system wasn't a factor for me in buying the GTO. I upgraded the other systems in past cars, because they sucked. This system is fine by me and I most likely won't do anything to it. Plus, who wants the added weight of a bunch of amps and sub-woofers. Most of the time I like to listen to the pipes anyway.

i might have added about 10-15#s over the rear axle where you want the weight anyways. 1/4 time might be 1/100 of a second different because of it but I dont care I dont take it to the track anyways .theres only 1 out here and its 75 miles away.lol