NewAgeGTO.com Previews the 2005 GTO!

http://www.newagegto.com/forum/uploads/2005%20Pontiac%20GTO%20Front_small.jpg

NewAgeGTO was invited to the 2005 GTO preview event at Bob Bondurant Racing School. There our Rep Jason Feuerberg was allows to drive the 05 GTO along with recieving racing instruction at the world class racing school.

ALSO-This is not meant to bash the 04. The 05 is a new car with many improvements over the 04. Please realize that many people are excited about this.

Below are his impressions-

The 2005 GTO is it better than the 2004? In one word yes it is! As a point of reference, I have owned two 2004 GTOs and have loved them both. With that in mind, I have no problem proclaiming the updated 2005 version as a definate step forward. So what’s improved? For starters there is the 400 HP LS2 straight from the Corvette. Then add to that braking and chassis upgrades, hood scoops, dual tailpipes exiting the way Delorean intended, and you get an idea of the serious intentions GM has for the 2005 GTO.

The devil is in the details, and the 2005 GTO has many detail changes. The improvements to the 2005 GTO include a new brake system featuring enlarged the front disc brakes and rear vented discs. The new brake calipers have the letters “GTO” on them, and are now painted red as in the Bonneville GXP and Grand Prix Comp G. As everyone knows, there is a new engine in the 2005 GTO and it is the LS2 straight out of the Corvette. It is nice to see the Corvette loosening it’s grip on GM’s highest performing engine (temporarily) for the GTO. The engineers told me that the car has 400 hp and 400 lb/tq and I have no reason to doubt that. One noticeable improvement in this area is that the engine now has electronic throttle control like the Corvette instead of the cable control that is in the 2004. The difference between the two is that in the 2005 the throttle is seamless as well as the traction control system which is much less abrasive when active. The traction control system last year had a very aggressive throttle relaxer which would have kicked your foot off the accelerator. In the new 05 it just feels like you have lost a little power while the computer works it’s magic to right your course.

While the power improvements are great, it is the GTO’s new exterior details that really grab you. Now as a no cost option, the hood comes with dual scoops in the style of GTOs past. This makes me wonder how many people would actually pass up the new hood, and how difficult it will be to do so? The hood also is not a true Ram Air type hood but is functional in the way that it breathes cool air on the mighty LS2. The rear end is different with the dual exhaust exiting both sides with a single 31/4 inch tip on each side. This change alone will eliminate one of the GTO’s most glaring original flaws. Also in the rear, “GTO” is embossed in between the two pipes with the name Pontiac taking the place of GTO on the trunk lid. There are two new colors Cyclone Gray and Midnight Blue replacing Cosmos Purple and Barbados Blue. These colors are a great addition to the already nice palette of colors that the GTO already enjoys. The Autocross package which was supposed to be a factory option is now going to be a dealer installed option which will retail for $2995. It will come painted in Silver, Red, and Black and also can come primered if there was another color that you wanted to spray it. The option is only coming for 2005 models and unfortunately will not retrofit for the 2004s. It includes: the grille inserts, a new spoiler, side sills, front clip and new rear fascia. The 18” wheels that came on the GTO show car will be available sometime in the Spring of 2005 according to GM executives. The wheels will come painted silver and not polished like the wheels that were on the Autocross car at SEMA this year.

Now to the driving! As soon as you sit in the driver’s seat you sense something is different because of the change in script on the instrument cluster and a bump in the rev limiter on the tachometer from 6000 RPM to 6500 RPM. Then you turn the GTO over and it loudly suggests something is different from 2004. The 2004 had a very distinct exhaust note, but the 2005 kicks it up a notch with a deeper and louder sound than the 2004. While most of it may be due to the new exhaust system, one can also suspect that the LS2 was throatier than the LS1 by design. The clutch is the same on the 6 speed manual as the 2004 so the transmission on the 2005 is the same as the 2004. The automatic on the other hand is now the 4L65-E instead of last years 4L60-E. This new transmission is an evolution of last years with beefed up internals to handle the 400HP LS2. The driveshaft, differential and CV joints have all been beefed up to handle the extra torque and horsepower of the LS2. It will be interesting to see if the quells some of the wheel hop complaints GTO owners had in the 2005.

After driving both, my honest opinion is that both the manual and the automatic seem to have the exact same seat of the pants acceleration. The engineers said that the automatic runs 0-60 in 4.6 seconds while the 6 speed runs 0-60 in 4.7 seconds while the ¼ mile for automatic is 13.0 seconds and the ¼ mile for the 6 speed is 13.1 seconds. The engine is just awesome! There is better low end torque on the LS2 than the LS1. The best way to describe it is that the LS2 fells like a LS1 that has been eating it’s Wheeties. We obviously did not test the GTO with gas mileage in mind, so I have no numbers to report. Since the LS2 is a technological evolution of the LS1, I would expect similar if not better gas mileage. Other than the LS2 the greatest improvement are the brakes which were simply awesome. I just kept slamming on them lap after lap and they would not fade. I can not say the same for the 2004 brake setup.

In conclusion, the 2005 GTO simply outperforms the 2004 GTO (or any older GTO for that matter) in power and braking. The looks have gotten more in line with enthusiast’s expectation with the new hood and dual exiting pipes. For those who find the stock look still bland, now you can pony up the extra dollars for the Autocross package and the 18” wheels. Speaking of price, though an 05 will cost you a few more dollars, for the improvements you get, it is easy to justify. Matter of fact, 2005 GTO worth every penny and then some! To sum it up, for 2005 Pontiac has taken Holden’s already solid engineering, injected a bit of brash American gusto in the power and style department, and created a car as worthy of the name as any GTO to rumble down the street.

That being said, is the 2004 also a great car in its own right? Yes. But the 2005 GTO is a good evolution of a car that will be with Pontiac for many years to come. If Pontiac wants to win the hearts of enthusiasts with it's new Goat, this is definatly a step in the right direction!

2005 GTO Pricing

A4 Base MSRP = $32,295
+ $700 Destination
+ $1,300 Gas Guzzler Tax
=$34,295

M6 Base MSRP = $32,295
+ $700 Destination
+ $695 6-speed Transmission
=$33,690


Jason who is Z06J in the forums will also be glad to share with you guys his experiences as far as racing and meeting people at Bondurant, so feel free to ask him any questions you may have!

Great article! Pictures?

Any word why the autocross kit wont retrofit to 04's? (Not that i'll matter since i'm getting an 05 anyhow.) How about the unpainted cost of the kit? (Ouch, $2995? I assume that includes the modified rear tips and installation in the price.)

What about suspension and/or frame changes?

How about the clutch?

most likely because of the exhaust routing...one exit and all.

I imagine other than that its all just hype.

I'm curious about the electronic throttle control. I know from claims of other cars that have switched to it (05 mustang) that throttle response is diminshed big time.

Originally posted by forestdweller@Dec 1 2004, 12:09 AM
I'm curious about the electronic throttle control. I know from claims of other cars that have switched to it (05 mustang) that throttle response is diminshed big time.
ditto...

Originally posted by forestdweller@Dec 1 2004, 12:09 AM
I'm curious about the electronic throttle control. I know from claims of other cars that have switched to it (05 mustang) that throttle response is diminshed big time.
My C5 was "drive by wire", and the throttle response was as good as, if not better than, my GTO.

It really all depends on the car and how it was implemented.

Originally posted by TEK GTO+Dec 1 2004, 12:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TEK GTO @ Dec 1 2004, 12:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-forestdweller@Dec 1 2004, 12:09 AM
I'm curious about the electronic throttle control. I know from claims of other cars that have switched to it (05 mustang) that throttle response is diminshed big time.
My C5 was "drive by wire", and the throttle response was as good as, if not better than, my GTO. [/b][/quote]
I agree, I drove a Z06 last summer which is drive by wire and I had no clue in the world that it was until after the fact. Not only that, the TC in the car was so seamless due to the drive by wire, I didnt even feel or notice it acting on the vehicle while making cornering under power when it would have clearly been drifting out without it on. (Basicly I drove it on an auto-x course.) Assuming they migrate the same controls and TC programming from the Corvette along with the engine and drivetrain, it should feel as good or better than before.

How about the shifter? I remember someone suggesting that the shifter felt smoother than 04's also?

Just a little constructive criticism guys:
First, I'm glad to see you were invited to the 2005 GTO Preview Event, you should be honored. You (newagegto.com) are obviously respected enough in the area of GTO exposure and your opinion has some weight in the minds of those interested in the GTO. So with that in mind, PLEASE proof read your articles. There are way too many mistakes in this article (grammatical, punctuation, wrong words, flow) and it only undermines your credibility. I love this site and want to see your respectability grow, so take my criticism to heart.

You guys are correect; the body kit won't fit on 2004 cars due to the exhaust routing.
Yes, the $2995 kit price includes dealer installation.
No frame or suspension changes for 2005 other than upgraded parts to handle the extra power/torque (like halfshafts and U-joints).

Great read and ill be calling soon Jason :).

Originally posted by rlsedition@Dec 1 2004, 02:44 PM
You guys are correect; the body kit won't fit on 2004 cars due to the exhaust routing.
Yes, the $2995 kit price includes dealer installation.
No frame or suspension changes for 2005 other than upgraded parts to handle the extra power/torque (like halfshafts and U-joints).
Was the shifter modified or otherwise tweaked for 05 to make it smoother or otherwise better than 04? (Or should I just go ahead and jump in on the B&M pre-purchase i've read about not long ago.)

I wonder what the individual aero parts will sell for unpainted? (I only have plans to use the front extension, side skirts and the indented grill set.)

0-60 in 4.6! Nice.

Um, wait a sec, did i read that the GTO is faster with the automatic trans? I would have thought, since it applys to every other car, that the GTO is quicker with the 6-speed manuel. Just curious.

I think that 4.6 for the automatic should be more like 5.6

It's just a little hard to believe, but you never know. I'll wait till we get some published numbers.

Remember, you have to lift and shift with a manual. The auto can shift while at full throttle in a tenth of what it takes a human to do so. I've looked at datalogs of my own shifting and it takes anywhere from 3 to 5 tenths of a second to lift, shift and get back on the throttle 100% in a drag racing scenario. Even power shifting is still 1.5 to 3 tenths of a second which is still long compared to that of an automatic. The gears are also longer in an auto so it doesnt even have to shift as often either.

On that note, the manual can still be driven harder than the auto so it can still end up faster in the long run when driven by someone skilled. It is also much better in most situations in racing. Though for consistant times, many drag racers use automatics.

The shifts on the 2005 4L65-E are firmer and quicker than the 4L60-E. Also with the added 50 hp. The auto does feel fast in the 2005.

Great review Jason Now I can't wait for my car to get here :D

Originally posted by CSiJason@Dec 2 2004, 06:37 AM
Remember, you have to lift and shift with a manual. The auto can shift while at full throttle in a tenth of what it takes a human to do so. I've looked at datalogs of my own shifting and it takes anywhere from 3 to 5 tenths of a second to lift, shift and get back on the throttle 100% in a drag racing scenario. Even power shifting is still 1.5 to 3 tenths of a second which is still long compared to that of an automatic. The gears are also longer in an auto so it doesnt even have to shift as often either.

On that note, the manual can still be driven harder than the auto so it can still end up faster in the long run when driven by someone skilled. It is also much better in most situations in racing. Though for consistant times, many drag racers use automatics.
I completely agree with you that automatics are great for drag racing, however I still have issues with these numbers for the GTO.

If both the manual and automatic GTO are rated at 400hp; how can the automatic be faster with greater parasitic losses through an automatic drivetrain? There's also the issue that an automatic transmission weighs more than a manual.

They probably would have given the automatic GTO an additional 50 or 75 horses to produce those numbers.

Anyone have any numbers of a manual C6 vs. an automatic C6?

Well theres the shifting time as said, but also the gear change, the Auto can stay in a gear longer since it as less of them and thus longer gears, During a drag race a shift is 0 acceleration, so if the M6 is shifting the auto will be pulling away untill it has to shift.

just some food for thought.

I don't know if this counts as "official" but this was the quickest thing I could find:

http://www.c6registry.com/Hot%5FNews/

0-60 for a Base 6-Speed C6 is 4.2
0-60 for a Auto with Performance Axel and Z51 Package is still only 4.49

The auto on the c6 is geared differently than the manual c6. on the gto the manual and auto rearend gears are the same unless im mistaken. :type:

sounds cool

Originally posted by Zeke0123@Dec 2 2004, 08:02 PM
The auto on the c6 is geared differently than the manual c6. on the gto the manual and auto rearend gears are the same unless im mistaken. :type:
True they have the same rear end gear, but the transmission gears are different.

The A4 does 0-60 in 4.6, the manual 4.7; both do the 1/4 mile in 13.0 secs at 109 MPH. These are numbers GM will publish in the catalogs and web site.

Originally posted by rlsedition@Dec 3 2004, 12:43 AM
The A4 does 0-60 in 4.6, the manual 4.7; both do the 1/4 mile in 13.0 secs at 109 MPH. These are numbers GM will publish in the catalogs and web site.
I'm jealous! Grrrrrr!

:jumpon:

Do supercharged '04s even run as fast as these '05s 0-60?

Do you happen to know what the MPG will be?

Depending on the Supercharger, 04's can get from 480-520 HP...a good amount more than an 05.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 2 2004, 03:40 PM
Well theres the shifting time as said, but also the gear change, the Auto can stay in a gear longer since it as less of them and thus longer gears, During a drag race a shift is 0 acceleration, so if the M6 is shifting the auto will be pulling away untill it has to shift.


To specify, staying in gear longer is NOT necessarily a good thing. Simply put longer gears are bad for acceleration, ala you could have a single gear go from 0-110mph but your 1/4 mile time would be pathetic. More gears are preferable up until the point extra shifting costs you more than better acceleration gearing otherwise grants you.

Autos do shift quicker in general, however as previously stated they never put the same amount down to the wheels. There is no mechanical connection between the engine and transmission in an auto, power is transmitted by oil.

Will the shift light be active on the 2005? Or, at least, did they tell you how to activate it?

Originally posted by forestdweller+Dec 3 2004, 06:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (forestdweller @ Dec 3 2004, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nocturn@Dec 2 2004, 03:40 PM
Well theres the shifting time as said, but also the gear change, the Auto can stay in a gear longer since it as less of them and thus longer gears, During a drag race a shift is 0 acceleration, so if the M6 is shifting the auto will be pulling away untill it has to shift.


To specify, staying in gear longer is NOT necessarily a good thing. Simply put longer gears are bad for acceleration, ala you could have a single gear go from 0-110mph but your 1/4 mile time would be pathetic. More gears are preferable up until the point extra shifting costs you more than better acceleration gearing otherwise grants you.

Autos do shift quicker in general, however as previously stated they never put the same amount down to the wheels. There is no mechanical connection between the engine and transmission in an auto, power is transmitted by oil. [/b][/quote]
True, but with the lack of 2 extra gears in the auto, it changes the ratio.

at the end of the 1/4 the GTO M6 may be in 3rd, but the auto may still be in second (not sure but just guessing), meaning the M6 has had to shift an extra time and thus has lost time where the auto hasnt. The gear in the Auto is longer yes, but that means it will be at a higher MPH when shifting than the M6. With the auto being in 2nd still, it has a greater power multiplication as the auto 2nd has greater acceleration than the standards 3rd.


No word on the shift light for 05 :(

Originally posted by MR.PONTIAC@Dec 3 2004, 10:01 PM
Will the shift light be active on the 2005? Or, at least, did they tell you how to activate it?
No I didn't see a shift light and they didn't tell us how to activate it.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 3 2004, 05:41 PM
at the end of the 1/4 the GTO M6 may be in 3rd, but the auto may still be in second (not sure but just guessing), meaning the M6 has had to shift an extra time and thus has lost time where the auto hasnt. The gear in the Auto is longer yes, but that means it will be at a higher MPH when shifting than the M6. With the auto being in 2nd still, it has a greater power multiplication as the auto 2nd has greater acceleration than the standards 3rd.

This is neglecting the fact that the first gears in the manual are higher (torque multiplied more) than the ones in the automatic, putting the manual ahead before ever shifting into 3rd.
Ideally, however, the manual would wind out in 3rd at the end of the 1/4 mile instead of having to shift into 4th. If your goal is simply the best 1/4 mile time, that is, and not necessarily being quicker otherwise.

Originally posted by forestdweller@Dec 3 2004, 08:03 PM
This is neglecting the fact that the first gears in the manual are higher (torque multiplied more) than the ones in the automatic, putting the manual ahead before ever shifting into 3rd.
True, but the auto is easier to launch harder so it may in fact get off the line first.

How come no one is mentioning the fact that the automatic will have less power to the rear wheels and will wiegh more?

How can it be quicker?

Is gearing in a four-speed auto enough to make up for those negatives?Also is this gearing going to suck down gas with 10MPG?

the MPG will be approx. the same, but the gearing is different as it has to do what the 6 speed does with 4 gears. The amount the auto puts down vs. the Standard is marginal maybe 5HP, the weight is alsonot that much greater also.

Its the fact that an Auto is easier to launch at higher RPM, and can stay in a gear longer that makes it faster (if in fact it is).

MPG will be the same over-all in reality, but the auto will get the $1300 gas guzzler charge, just as a side note.

Wanted to quote you Nocturn, but haven't figeured that out yet.

Little button at the top next to report, edit (if your post) is one that says quote...simply press that.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 4 2004, 12:18 AM
Little button at the top next to report, edit (if your post) is one that says quote...simply press that.
Got it.
Thanks

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 4 2004, 12:07 AM
The amount the auto puts down vs. the Standard is marginal maybe 5HP, the weight is alsonot that much greater also.

Its the fact that an Auto is easier to launch at higher RPM, and can stay in a gear longer that makes it faster (if in fact it is).
The general rule of thumb is 15% loss for a manual, ~22% for an auto. Roughly 25hp difference for a 350hp car, though you'd have to run both on the same dyno to know for sure. The weight is usually about an extra 100lbs which roughly equals 10hp. This is why a properly driven M6 gets low 13s, and A4s are high 13s and often 14s. Even with a bad M6 driver the trap speed is higher because its putting more power to the wheels.

This is also why F1 cars and exotics like Ferrari don't use automatic transmissions, they use clutchless manuals where a clutch is computer operated. IOW, a manual tranny that's operated automatically. This and/or CVT's are most likely the future of transmissions.

Curb weight (lb / kg)
3761 / 1706 (manual transmission)
3774 / 1712 (automatic transmission)

:drevil:

If the parasitic loss were so drastically different you woulnd't see both standards and autos putting down around the same numbers (290-300 RWHP)

Either way the question is, if all they did was beef up the tranny, why is the 2005 auto faster if the gears are still the same? Shiftkit perhaps?

2005 GTO Pricing
A4 Base MSRP = $32,295
+ $700 Destination
+ $1,300 Gas Guzzler Tax
=$34,295

I'm glad someone mentioned this above. Is the GG tax now 1300 bucks instead of 1000 for 2004?

This of course would mean a slightly worse mpg for the 05 A4 over the 04 A4. 16/21 mpg on the 04 auto does this mean the 05 auto will be 16/20 or 15/21 ???

Sorry if this has been discussed earlier, I've been sick the last few days and not felt well enough to check the boards. :)

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 4 2004, 03:53 AM
Curb weight (lb / kg)
3761 / 1706 (manual transmission)
3774 / 1712 (automatic transmission)

:drevil:

If the parasitic loss were so drastically different you woulnd't see both standards and autos putting down around the same numbers (290-300 RWHP)

Either way the question is, if all they did was beef up the tranny, why is the 2005 auto faster if the gears are still the same? Shiftkit perhaps?
Remember now the 2004 and the 2005 AUTO GTOs come equipt with the "Launch Mode" - If you ever driven one you will understand exactly what I mean....

OK now my guess,

We all know the 4L60-E can handle more than 350hP to the crank. I bet it can easily handle 500hp at the crank. With that said the new tranny is the 4L65-E which is beefed up a bit to handle the extra HP of the LS2 which leads me to believe that is can handle more that 500hp at the crank. Now with that said maybe GM beefed up the shifting and shift points to make the AUTO more aggressive with the Launch Mode since they beefed up the tranny. I have seen already from reports that just tuning the Auto 2004 GTO you can squeeze out quite a few ponies to the tires...so maybe it is just a tuning issue that GM has now taken care of in the PCM of the 2005.

The really funny thing is (if it is true that the 2005 A4 is faster than the M6) and they are producing a lot more M6s this time..then is everyone going to be looking for the A4s and are going to have a hard time finding them, like the M6 now :woot:

The scary thing is, i'm going to try and test drive one of each before I make my final decision. The only reason i would even consider that is the fact that the auto is considerably closer in performance without being a great deal more expensive.

Originally posted by TheJizzer@Dec 4 2004, 04:05 PM
The really funny thing is (if it is true that the 2005 A4 is faster than the M6) and they are producing a lot more M6s this time..then is everyone going to be looking for the A4s and are going to have a hard time finding them, like the M6 now :woot:
The 'launch mode' is actually sort of a gimmick, as others have noted other RWD auto trans cars do the same thing.
I suspect the reason they are claiming the A4 is faster is because of the very reason that the '04 A4s aren't selling as well.

Originally posted by forestdweller@Dec 4 2004, 08:28 PM
I suspect the reason they are claiming the A4 is faster is because of the very reason that the '04 A4s aren't selling as well.
That was what I was thinking.

Originally posted by forestdweller+Dec 4 2004, 08:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (forestdweller @ Dec 4 2004, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheJizzer@Dec 4 2004, 04:05 PM
The really funny thing is (if it is true that the 2005 A4 is faster than the M6) and they are producing a lot more M6s this time..then is everyone going to be looking for the A4s and are going to have a hard time finding them, like the M6 now :woot:
The 'launch mode' is actually sort of a gimmick, as others have noted other RWD auto trans cars do the same thing.
I suspect the reason they are claiming the A4 is faster is because of the very reason that the '04 A4s aren't selling as well. [/b][/quote]
I am going to disagree that the launch mode is a gimmic - Have you ever seen the travel that the rear has?

As for poor A4 sales - I have no idea...but I bet that GM beefed up the A4 program to make up for some of the torque managment in the A4 for 05.

Regarding launch mode, I shall quote T. Vick from a while back:
It does this because it's rear wheel drive with an independent rear suspension. The differential is mounted to the underside of the car so when the axle has load applied to it it pulls the rear of the car down. Just putting it into gear drops it a little, power braking pulls it down even more. Corvettes do the same thing. Pontiac just decided to come up with a name for it. You can do it with an M6 too if you can hold your right foot on the brake and throttle and let the clutch out until it grabs a little.

Originally posted by forestdweller@Dec 5 2004, 05:49 PM
Regarding launch mode, I shall quote T. Vick from a while back:
It does this because it's rear wheel drive with an independent rear suspension. The differential is mounted to the underside of the car so when the axle has load applied to it it pulls the rear of the car down. Just putting it into gear drops it a little, power braking pulls it down even more. Corvettes do the same thing. Pontiac just decided to come up with a name for it. You can do it with an M6 too if you can hold your right foot on the brake and throttle and let the clutch out until it grabs a little.
OK I am not disputing the working of the LAUNCH MODE - I am just saying it is REAL... MY car will squat a good few inches when I torque break.... meaning an instant pre-load to the rear wheels -- AND THAT IS BAD HOW!?!?!?!?!?!

Originally posted by TheJizzer@Dec 5 2004, 07:51 PM
OK I am not disputing the working of the LAUNCH MODE - I am just saying it is REAL... MY car will squat a good few inches when I torque break.... meaning an instant pre-load to the rear wheels -- AND THAT IS BAD HOW!?!?!?!?!?!
LOL, that doesn't make it 'bad.' It is real, it's just that it's not so much a feature as much as it is a side effect of any car with RWD and IRS.

Originally posted by forestdweller@Dec 5 2004, 05:49 PM
Regarding launch mode, I shall quote T. Vick from a while back:
It does this because it's rear wheel drive with an independent rear suspension. The differential is mounted to the underside of the car so when the axle has load applied to it it pulls the rear of the car down. Just putting it into gear drops it a little, power braking pulls it down even more. Corvettes do the same thing. Pontiac just decided to come up with a name for it. You can do it with an M6 too if you can hold your right foot on the brake and throttle and let the clutch out until it grabs a little.
I used to do the same thing in my Honda at the drag strip. I'd keep the e-brake up while staged and load the clutch just enough to make it want to lurch forward some. It hurts the driveline less when you launch since it already has some of that load and it tends to get you off the line in a hurry. Just remember to let off the e-brake!

Originally posted by CSiJason@Dec 5 2004, 10:07 PM
I used to do the same thing in my Honda at the drag strip. I'd keep the e-brake up while staged and load the clutch just enough to make it want to lurch forward some. It hurts the driveline less when you launch since it already has some of that load and it tends to get you off the line in a hurry. Just remember to let off the e-brake!
When/if you get a GTO, I look forward to seeing your 1/4 times :D

Hey everyone I just got some really interesting news about what GM has got planned for the next 3 months. I havent seen any posts on it, but if who ever is a moderator on here might want to post this.

18" wheels will start into production on March 1st, dealer order guide will go live on January 17th, first DOSP cycle in planned for January 20th, first dealership arrivals around May/June timeframe. Keep in mind the 18" wheels are great but the tires are summer only so make sure dealers in the northern climates are aware of this as customers will need a set of winter tires if they plan on driving in the snow!

GTO pricing should be released on the 20th. With a price increase of only $500 for the new content, 2004's will be difficult to sell come January/February. Ship to dealers from the port in California is planned for December 20th.

We will announce the 2004 GTO SPO retro kit in mid December. Kit includes 2005 scooped hood, grille inserts, and custom spoiler. Kits should start hitting dealerships through their local parts ADI's in January. More details coming in mid December.

We will also announce the GMSPO 2005 GTO Sport Appearance Package in mid-December. Package includes several exterior enhancements and will be available through your dealers parts department as an ACO. Theres a bunch more on advertising and stuff, and a Motortend compo w/ the new mustang, and yes the goat kicked its @$$!!!!!

Good info!! Thanks!!!

Originally posted by REDGLOW360@Dec 7 2004, 08:00 AM
We will announce the 2004 GTO SPO retro kit in mid December. Kit includes 2005 scooped hood, grille inserts, and custom spoiler. Kits should start hitting dealerships through their local parts ADI's in January. More details coming in mid December.
I want a kit that has dual pipes coming out my a**.

Well Pontiac updated their site with the 2005 GTO and they still claim 0-60 in 5.3 for the manual and 5.4 for the 4L65-E auto.

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_p....jsp?imageNum=1 (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_popup.jsp?imageNum=1)

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_p....jsp?imageNum=2 (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_popup.jsp?imageNum=2)

Originally posted by Apollo9000@Dec 7 2004, 07:28 PM
Well Pontiac updated their site with the 2005 GTO and they still claim 0-60 in 5.3 for the manual and 5.4 for the 4L65-E auto.

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_p....jsp?imageNum=1 (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_popup.jsp?imageNum=1)

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_p....jsp?imageNum=2 (http://www.pontiac.com/gto/transmissions_popup.jsp?imageNum=2)
I smell a typo.

My guess is they have not updated the site "fully" yet. Remember they have not even announced the $$ yet...

I would look for a more official release of the website on Dec 20th when the $$ are to be released. Like the good old "Build Your Vehicle" and a better sense of the feel of the 2005 GTO like maybe a set of pictures of just the 18" rims (which are also not on the site now) and the body kit.


Relaxe and be patient grasshopper.... they are just throwning the proverbial bone right now. :afro:

And going back to "beating a dead horse" what I meant by the Launch Mode being a factor...

IF and I mean IF..... GM decided that the new A4 transmission can handle more power maybe they made the shift points and torque management better in the 05 A4 vs the 04 A4.

Thus....if the rear is PRELOADED in the A4 application the car can theoretically launch at a higher RPM range like 3000 in a M6 –

So in essence the 2004 A4 is only .1 second slower to 60 and to 1320 feet than the 2004 M6 by GMs drivers – so a reprogrammed more aggressive A4 in the 2005 will not be so “unbelievable” that it will be .1 second faster in both. Remember shifting takes a human time but a auto tranny it is negligible.

Also if memory serves me correctly doesn’t the A4 have a higher top end? Or do I have that bass-ackwards?

I got some more info on what in store for us in the next 2 months.

Classic and modern GTOs will be featured on NBC with the December 11 broadcast television premiere of "The Last Ride," the Dennis Hopper-led film originally airing on the USA cable network this summer. An on-line promotion highlighting the NBC-airing as well as the DVD release on December 21, will go live on December 10. During the first quarter of 2005, GTO and the new V-8 Grand Prix GXP will be combined for nationally advertising.

The GTO web site will be updated with 2005 GTO content on December 7th.
2005 GTO brochures will be in dealerships during the second half of January.

Several magazines will feature the 2005 GTO in the first quarter as a result of our November press ride and drive at Bondurant. Motor Trend will feature the results of a GTO versus Mustang challenge (we kicked their a#*).

So technically as of the time of this post the website should be updated.

Originally posted by REDGLOW360@Dec 8 2004, 12:06 AM
Several magazines will feature the 2005 GTO in the first quarter as a result of our November press ride and drive at Bondurant. Motor Trend will feature the results of a GTO versus Mustang challenge (we kicked their a#*).

So are you saying MT reviews the '05 in the Jan issue? Any specifics?

Yeah it should be, I haven't seen anything on the MT website, but from what I over heard it should be January and think theres gonna be a big portion on the revamp of the muscle car. Most likely they'll have all those concept renderings from the last 2-3 yrs (Charger, Chevelle, Camaro, Firbird, etc) and whats happening with them. But don't quote me on it. :bs:

An automatic with greater parasitic loss and slightly more weight CAN be faster than an otherwise comparably equipped manual if the torque multiplication of the stall is tweaked. This is almost never done due to fuel efficiency concerns. However, I remember reading somewhere that GM has raised the stall speed on the GTO's. The atrocious EPA gas mileage seems to support this theory.

I'm coming from the F-body world where I had two LS1 powered Z28's. My heavier A4 99 Z28 with less mods would run 12.40's all day long compared to my no options strippo M6 98 Z28 that would run 12.70's with more bolt-on mods. When I had my 6-speed Z28 I was sick of seeing all these guys with automatic/high stall cars just running incredible ET's. They had the one mod I couldn't get. A nice fat high stall torque convertor.

I don't care how much fun the 6-speed is. I think WINNING is more fun than losing. And when I get my '05 it's going to lay down the smack at the local drag strips. I'm definitely going to drop in a 3800 stall aftermarket piece with a stall/torque ratio of at least 2.0. Let the good ET's roll baby!!!!!

There are alot of variances in the 98-99 FBodys, Also there is alot of driver skill that is involved in a standard transmission.

Nocturn isn't kidding regarding the variances. I've seen LS1 Fbodies A4s run mid 14s repeatedly, only for others to run mid 13s.

Yes, you can make an automatic quicker for drag racing purposes if the 1/4 mile is the sole goal. Simply because 90% of drag racing is won in the launch.
However, from 5mph on is a different story. There's a reason automatics aren't used when racing involves a track/road course.

Why in the hell aren't the 2005 goats out yet? I have been waiting for this car since august and it has been very frustrating!!! It is also very frustrating that nobody, and i mean nobody, knows for sure when it's coming out. I have contacted Pontiac, GM, and tons of dealerships and they all say something different. Some told me the end of october, then some told me mid november, now they tell me end of december, january, and february. I know Australia is a long way away but i'm sure they have a **** telephone there at the holden plant. I think nobody wants to say exactly when there coming out because there having such a hard time selling the 2004 goats. Well you know what, GM should not make the customer suffer just because they f***ed up on the 2004's. I'm sure there are a lot of you out there who agree with me on this issue. As the days go by i am getting more and more frustrated. If the 05's are not out by early january i'm going to a company who wants my business.

the 05's only began production in early september, they only ship them over by the boatload, so they wont send one untill they have enough to fill a full ship load. The 04's didnt get to their preorders till early december/late feburary so I imagine they will show up at dealers then.

It also depends where you are in the country.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Dec 15 2004, 11:15 PM
the 05's only began production in early september, they only ship them over by the boatload, so they wont send one untill they have enough to fill a full ship load. The 04's didnt get to their preorders till early december/late feburary so I imagine they will show up at dealers then.

It also depends where you are in the country.
They may also be doing minor tweaks on a large scale while waiting for a huge shipment. If I was a decision maker for GM and had a bunch of GTOs just waiting for a mass shipment I would be adding that dead pedal said to be added. I heard this wasn't done, was really nice on my T/A.

Its standard on the 05.

Thats good, small change but nice. The review I read commented this was not done.

I don't think there is going to be a dead pedal on the '05. It was supposed to be but according to the review I read it didn't have one. Maybe it will be on the list of '06 enhancements.

Any review you have read for an 05 at this point would leave me to believe it was a pre production car that they threw the new drivetrain, exhaust, rear bumper and hood on to an 04 for testing. Since there was no need to test a dead pedal for improved value or performance ( they know what it adds already) they may have opted to save a few bucks and not put them in the pre production cars. Therefore, who knows, but GM has said it's there in the 05s.

The c&d review was using a preproduction '05 test mule... some final details were missing on this car so it could compete in the comparo test. This also explains the lousy shifter feel...I wonder what the outcome would have been if they tested the auto versions :huh:

The magazine test cars are early build 2005 saleable "pilot" cars, not modified 2004s. They have a dead pedal, but no aluminum cover on that area.

The reason you have 2005s coming out at the end of the year rather than in the fall is the Holden build plan, which is not set to a US sales cadence. That is being addressed for the 2006 model year, where the new car will begin production earlier than in the 2005 model year. The first 2005s are in the port now and will begin shipments to dealers just before the end of the year.

Originally posted by rlsedition@Dec 20 2004, 09:47 PM
That is being addressed for the 2006 model year, where the new car will begin production earlier than in the 2005 model year. The first 2005s are in the port now and will begin shipments to dealers just before the end of the year.
Interesting, this means the '05 will have a short lifespan before the '06s come out...

Correct this also could coincide with the lower production numbers for obvious reasons...because they are working with less time this year because they are setting it to the US calender.

Ok, just to weigh in on why the automatic is faster in the quarter mile than the 6 speed is...two words....gear ratios.
For comparison purposes you have to understand that the torque curves are somewhat similar on the old LS1 in the F-bodys and the new GTO's 400hp engine.
For those of you famaliar with the F-body forums, there are about 10,000 posts about what is faster, and A4 or an M6. Bottom line is..in the F-bodys they were about equal...if anything the automatic had more consistent lower times than the M6, even in the hands of expereinced drivers. I beleive Motor Trend or Car and Driver even did an article back in 1998 or 1999 testing a Formula with an LS1 with an automatic and a manual, and the best 1/4 mile times they received were in the automatic.
So how does all this relate to the current GTO? The difference in the overall gear ratios between the M6 and the A4 is much more aggressive in the GTO than it was in the F-bodys. The very aggressive gearing in the A4 is the reason.
Also another way to compare is to look at the new C6 Corvette. The M6 in the vettes is faster, but not by a lot. Mot numbers I have seen show it .2-.3 faster in the quarter mile. Now look at the gas mileage ratings. The EPA ratings for the vette are very close between the automatic and the manual. I think only 1mpg different. Now look at the GTO with the same engine. The Automatic gets MUCH lower gas milage...that is a result of very VERY aggressive gearing in the A4. If the Vettes A4 can be within .2-.3 in the quarter mile of the m6 with moderate gearing...then the gearing that is so aggressive in the GTO to lower it's mileage ratings that much will make it that much quicker through the quarter mile.
Bottom line..the 2005 GTO has pretty much the most aggressive gearing from the factory of any V8 powered A4 in recent memory.

What do you want to bet that the '06 models will likely have a similar problem the '04s have. With the '06 likely a carryover from '05, the complete transformation coming in '07 could lead to some good discounts on the '06 if enough people decide to wait.

I hope the odb is stronger than the one in the C-5.It couldn't handle the drive by wire.Electric gremlins left me sitting several times with no accelerator.Fast driving would overwelm it.Never again do I want electric throtle control.Darn near got me killed twice in the C-5

Originally posted by mjd1001@Dec 24 2004, 01:05 AM
Ok, just to weigh in on why the automatic is faster in the quarter mile than the 6 speed is...two words....gear ratios.
For comparison purposes you have to understand that the torque curves are somewhat similar on the old LS1 in the F-bodys and the new GTO's 400hp engine.
For those of you famaliar with the F-body forums, there are about 10,000 posts about what is faster, and A4 or an M6. Bottom line is..in the F-bodys they were about equal...if anything the automatic had more consistent lower times than the M6, even in the hands of expereinced drivers. I beleive Motor Trend or Car and Driver even did an article back in 1998 or 1999 testing a Formula with an LS1 with an automatic and a manual, and the best 1/4 mile times they received were in the automatic.
So how does all this relate to the current GTO? The difference in the overall gear ratios between the M6 and the A4 is much more aggressive in the GTO than it was in the F-bodys. The very aggressive gearing in the A4 is the reason.
Also another way to compare is to look at the new C6 Corvette. The M6 in the vettes is faster, but not by a lot. Mot numbers I have seen show it .2-.3 faster in the quarter mile. Now look at the gas mileage ratings. The EPA ratings for the vette are very close between the automatic and the manual. I think only 1mpg different. Now look at the GTO with the same engine. The Automatic gets MUCH lower gas milage...that is a result of very VERY aggressive gearing in the A4. If the Vettes A4 can be within .2-.3 in the quarter mile of the m6 with moderate gearing...then the gearing that is so aggressive in the GTO to lower it's mileage ratings that much will make it that much quicker through the quarter mile.
Bottom line..the 2005 GTO has pretty much the most aggressive gearing from the factory of any V8 powered A4 in recent memory.
Not exactly, the Fbody divers from the GTO in the powerband as the GTO has a different camshaft, giving more low end power over the straight Corvette transfer to the fbody.

More difference is that the rear end is the same on both the auto and standard GTO's, not the same in the case of the Fbody. Another variable is the transmission gearing in the auto fbody might not be the same in the auto GTO. The GTO's auto is geared to give it decent milliage without killing the performance, this is because the auto only has 4 gears to the standards 6, it has to use less agressive tranny gears to get the better milliage, because it only has 4 gears as opposed to 6, with 6 gears the standard can take more agressive gearing, and still maintain fuel economy. So because of this the GTO's auto is about .2.-.4 slower depending on the driver.

And for comparison heres the gears of an auto 05 stang GT
3.22
2.29
1.54
1.0
.71

Rear end is a 3.31

The GTO...
3.06
1.63
1.00
.71

with a rear of 3.42

10.658 gear multiplication in 1st for the stang
10.4652 for the GTO

So its not exactly the most agresive gearing, the stang has more agressive gears despite its lower rear end gear.

An automatic with a high stall torque convertor is not as sensitive to gear ratio's as some might think. Regardless of the gear the Torque convertor can keep the engine in it's sweet spot. This is another reason why modified automatics are faster than manuals in acceleration contests.

If you are after top speed or running the Silver State classic then by all means get the manual. If you want to do battle in the stoplight wars then an automatic is the hands down winner. Modified Automatics own the 0-60. Contests of acceleration are different than contests of speed. I think this is what confuses some on this forum. Torque is what gets you going from a standing start and the automatic offers an unmatched lever in the high stall torque convertor. If Pontiac indeed tweaked the one in the GTO it's entirely possible it's just as quick, if not quicker than the manual. Perhaps GM is pulling out all the stops.

If auto companies were not concerned with fuel mileage or durability than I dare say all automatic sports cars would be quicker 0-60 cars than their manual counterparts from the factory. You just can't compete with the torque multiplication of the torque convertor and the higher AVERAGE hp to the wheels (it's possible to have a higher peak but lower average) offered by an optimally configured stall speed/engine combo.

However, since fuel mileage is a concern it is true that stock manuals are always quicker than stock automatics from the factory. However, I've found it to be equally true that modified automatics are always faster than modified manuals at the same power level.

:pain: WHY CAN'T WE GET IMPULSE RED PAINT THIS YEAR ?

Originally posted by boomer@Feb 2 2005, 09:47 AM
:pain: WHY CAN'T WE GET IMPULSE RED PAINT THIS YEAR ?
Well for starters that isnt a color, there is Impulse Blue which is available on the 05s, and there is Pulse red, which was the limited edition color on the 04s. You could always paint the car after you get it...

check that caps lock.