Hey guys. My 05 has about 1050 miles on it. I've never dumped the clutch or even launched it really hard. It was always kinda hard to get it into gear when it's cold, which I'm guessing is normal. Usually when I shift, as soon as I push the clutch in, I hear a clanging/banging sound undreneath the car. It does it mostly in lower gears and reverse. Sounds like something banging back and forth about four times. Also, it makes the same rattling/clanging when I coast over a speed bump in gear. Today, I was driving home from the car wash and I noticed the clutch was really easy to push in. It also felt like I had lost about 50 hp. It wasn't pulling nearly as hard as it should be. I stopped at Wendy's and popped the hood to check the clutch reservoir. (Is it called something else? I learned on a stick, but this is the first one I've owned) There was some chunky/pasty stuff floating in there, and the fluid was a dark gray. When in neutral, there's a whirring sound that goes away when you clutch in. What the hell is up with my week-old GTO? There has also been a slight burning smell when I get out of the car since the day I got it. Help!

Drive immediately to your nearest GTO service department, do not pass Ford, do not collect "Brownie points". You could be heading for additional problems if you don't get it fixed. Sounds like a combination of things starting with a bad throwout bearing, contamination in the clutch fluid reservoir, broken hub springs, etc. The quicker you get it on record, the less chance the dealer will give you grief over abuse (even if you didn't).

Goddammit! I know what you're saying about the abuse thing, I'm only 22 so that's going to be their first conclusion before they even look at the car. Of course it's Saturday, so all the dealers by me closed hours ago, and they're not open on Sunday, so it looks like I'm grounded for the next two days. Has this happened to anyone else? What the hell are the chunks in my clutch fluid, and why is the fluid dark gray? It's thick and slippery like packing grease in a new gun or something. I dare em to use the 'abuse' excuse to explain that....

As an ex-GM service manager, I think you're home free, don't get excited. Someone must have put the wrong stuff in the clutch reservoir and caused some rubber cup deterioration. Obviously with 1,000 miles it wasn't you because all fluids should have been topped off and checked at pre-delivery by the dealer. Get it in Monday ASAP and don't drive it until you have to leave.

Have them check both the master and slave clutch cylinders (they really should swap both of them out after flushing the system). Then have a good look at the clutch itself to make sure there aren't broken hub springs. Then have a good look at the U-joints and stub shaft joints. You will get a little clunk as the driveshaft slips front/back under load/slack, and the Chevy pickups use a special spline lube on the front driveshaft splines to eliminate that pop/clunk.

Where's our Holden mechanic? :huh:

Going to the dealer in the morning.

Hope he doesn't say UR DOOMED!!

I might add a note here about hydraulic clutch linkage. Normally, there is no maintenance needed on these. My 96 T/A never needed so much as a topping up of fluid even when I sold it at 140,000 miles or so. Brake fluid, on the other hand, really should be flushed and refilled maybe every 3-4 years or so. BMW has it as a mandatory annual service in order to maintain warranty validation (or at least they used to when I worked at a BMW dealership as a service manager). Might not be a bad idea for the clutch system if you plan to keep the car. Just make sure the right fluid is used, 'cause mineral oil will destroy all rubber seals in the system. :type:

Here goes:

Took it to Hall Pontiac in Va Beach, they said since I didn't buy it there, they wouldn't be able to get to it today. Then I took it to Perry Buck Pontiac down the street. I tried to explain what the problem was to their service manager, which just produced a dumbfounded look on his face. So he goes for a test drive with me in the car. He drives the **** car like he's in the daytona 500, saying "I don't know what lack of power you're talking about." Meanwhile, it feels like we're in a **** Escort, no power whatsoever. I asked him if he'd ever driven one of these before, and he said yes, which I didn't believe for a second.

So we get back and he pops the hood and looks at the fluid. It's blacker than the **** engine oil, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it. So they go and hook it up to the computer. While they're doing this, I go around front and ask one of the sales guys to pop the hood on an 05 Yellowjacket M6. I look at that fluid and it's as clear as the brake fluid, like it should be. I go back and they tell me there's nothing wrong with my car. I tell them about the GTO I looked at in front, and the difference between the two. So he says to me:

"What are you getting at?"

CAN YOU FREAKIN BELIEVE THIS GUY!?!?!?!

I said I'm getting at there's something wrong with my car. To which he says 'Do you want me to change the fluid for you?'

I said no and grabbed my keys and got the hell outta there. Then I took it to Colonial Chevrolet, and they said they don't service Pontiacs. I asked about their GM Goodwrench and wasn't Pontiac a GM vehicle, and he said they only service what they sell, and they don't sell Pontiacs. Then I took it to Greenbriar Pontiac, where it's sitting right now because they can even get to it until 3pm.

Never in my life have I encountered such horrific customer service as I did at Perry Pontiac. The whole time they we yessing me to death and smiling like I didn't know what the hell I was talking about. I was as close to making a scene in public as I have ever been. I was so incredibly dumbfounded how they saw nothing wrong with my car.

So four dealerships and 4 hours later, still no news.

**** that sucks, you might want to start looking into a mechanic or so, usually they can at least tell you whats wrong with the car unlike dealers.

I was in the service dept, I figured they should know what the hell is going on. My mistake...

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. I have my 04' serviced at Reichard Buick-Pontiac in Dayton, Ohio. They bought out the Pontiac dealer I dealt with a month after I got mine. The people there are very friendly and eager to help but have no clue about anything when it comes to the GTO. I just had it in for an oil change and I inquired about the computer upgrade for early build models regarding the instrument gauge issue and the service rep had no clue as to what I was talking about. At least he was honest and said they didn't deal with many GTO owners. In fact he stated only me and one ther owner(also a black 04) bring em for service. But still they should at least be up to date on the car. BTW....the other black 04 that was in the shop had a serious issue....the rep told me something happened with the driveshaft...something along the lines that the factory didn't put anti-cease on the bolts and the driveshaft came off. He told me to have mine back in and they will check mine to see if it has the same problem. Holden tech...do you have any idea what this guy is talking about???

Chris

Just got it back from Greenbriar pontiac. He said there was air in the system, so he drained it and put new fluid in and bled it. The fluid is still dirty. I drove it and talked to the guy that worked on my car, he said it was fine, I said it still feels like it has no power. He told me it felt fine to him, and I said have you ever driven one of these before, and of course he says yes, but I seriously doubt it. Nobody in this god**** state thinks there's anything wrong with this car. I swear to god if the car felt like this the first day I woulda drove it right back to the dealer and got my money back. What the hell do I have to do to get someone to believe me?? Just drive it till it's undrivable? Til the **** clutch falls out on the pavement? It still has the burning smell. WHat the hell am I supposed to do?

Try taking to a local shop and see if they can find anything.

Rule number one is to always take the car to the dealer you bought it from. As an ex-service manager, I can tell you that warranty work is a loser for the dealership. Factory time is less than "fair" time according to Motors and Chilton manuals, although those are usually inflated above what it really takes to make an honest repair. Warranty repairs are close to service department cost, so warranty work takes away from the gravy jobs like brakes, tune ups and such. Mechanics hate working on warranty because it doesn't pay the same time that customer work does and you lose time.

GM used to pay (for example) 0.3 hour to fix a rattle. Think about that a minute. You have to go drive the car to figure out where it really is (don't always take the customer description as gospel, just as a starting point), then take it back, tear down, hope to find it, replace everything and go drive it again to see if you found it. 0.3 hour is 18 minutes. Can't be done. You lose time, and if you don't fix it, you do it again until you do. Moral is, make sure you can demonstrate the problem (fluid color sounds like a cinch) and try again. Don't get hacked off, just be firm and persistent and keep your cool.

If there really is a burnt smell, ask if they can smell it. If not, get a second opinion from a mechanic if you can find an honest one. I assume you aren't riding the clutch and smelling burnt clutch lining. Maybe oil on the exhaust pipes from a clutch hydraulic leak? If you are SURE there is a consistent burning odor, make sure it does it all the time and then try again.

Regarding service bulletins, all that stuff is online in the service department via satellite. It could be that they gave you the run around because you bought the car somewhere else and they didn't want to work on it.

According to Pontiac, all dealers must work on their brand of cars. Chevy won't touch anything but Chevy, etc. but Pontiac MUST fix Pontiacs. They just don't have to do it right NOW and they will give priority to existing customers as you can see is fair.

Go run the car and see what your 0-60 times are. It might be that you are getting used to the power and it seems slower than your first test drive.

In your owners booklet is the number of the district Pontiac rep. If you can't get reasonable (and I mean reasonable, not putting your car ahead of people who have had appointments for a week ahead of you) service, call the district rep and ask him to help. Those guys can make it pretty sticky for dealers who don't toe the line.

Good luck. :eatarrow:

mldavis,

I know for a fact that it's slower than it's supposed to be. When you're in 3rd at about 3 or 4 grand, and you punch it, your neck snaps and you get put in your seat, right? Mine doesn't anymore. It just kinda goes a little faster. Even my roomate who's only been in it 2 or 3 times notices it.

This morning it took me about 20 seconds to get it into first. It just wouldnt go. So my dealer in NY said that tomorrow morning, if it doesn't go into first right away, call the roadside assitance, and they have to tow it, and if the dealer can't look at it within a reasonable time, they have to give you a loaner/rental. The first place looked like the best dealership, but they were too busy, so that's the one they'll tow it to, and since they're so busy, they'll have to give me a rental.

Now when you're coasting in gear, it makes a loud whirring/whining noise. All sticks do that in lower gears, but this is REALLY loud. The sounds and smells are getting worse. I'm just worried that there's going to be damage to the tranny by the time they actually fix it...

Hrm, sounds like a clutch issue, did you notice in the higher gears that the RPM would climb like that in a lower gear but the MPH wouldn't increase as fast?

I noticed that when I had a clutch issue.

Very interesting. Please let us know what they find. Got to be a clutch slipping issue related to a bad pressure plate (smell and lack of "hook up"), but where does the bad clutch fluid come in? I really miss my days as service manager because I love trouble shooting this kind of stuff :( Sounds like maybe 2 problems, both in the clutch and hydraulic system, although I can't figure out how a bad hydraulic system could cause clutch slippage.

Usually when the clutch hydraulic cylinders fail, you just can't get the car into gear (your problem trying to shift into 1st) because the hydraulic pressure isn't strong enough to force the pressure plate away from the flywheel to allow engagement. BUT if the pressure plate is engaged (under power, clutch out), it shouldn't slip UNLESS the slave cylinder is leaking somehow onto the clutch itself causing the slippage and burning smell. That's my guess.

Sure wish Helm would send me my service manual. Anyone got one yet?

The tow truck is here right now, going to Hall Pontiac in a few minutes. Wish me luck!!

My current truck had similar problems, ya completely different tranny, but it is similar. The dark fluid could be a sign of something wrong with the master or slave cylinder, which will be why the pressure plate is not engaging properly. Thus getting the loss of power and burnt smell.

The two times I had "symptons similar" to what you are describing, dealers started out by flushing the hydrualics and recharging them, claiming an air bubble could cause the symptoms. How do I get an air bubble in there after 45k miles? Anyways, the solution once was a completely new tranny, a gear went bad, probably factory defect, and ate all the other gears. The other time it was the clutch assembly, and they replaced the pressure plate, throw out bearing, slave and master cylinder. I don't remember if the fluid was dark though.

My clutch went 4k miles after they had just replaced my tranny, coincidence? GMPP didn't think so and made me pay for the clutch. It shouldn't of gone out after only 48k miles, my other truck went 75k and 85k on clutches while I was driving it. The clutch plate was so worn it was through the ceramic and into the metal backing.

Anyways, enough ranting, hope all turns out well. Let them flush and recharge the system then push more if it doesn't fix it. I am guessing that is their standard first try at fixing the car.

Ok guys,

I went to Hall Pontiac and they said that the clutch fluid gets dirty like mine after about 50 miles. Is this true? Second, we were test driving it and the guy reached under the pedal and pulled the floor mat back towards him, because it had slid up too far, the plastic piece that holds it in place broke on both passenger and drivers sides. So the floor mat was preventing the gas pedal from going down all the way. The car is faster now, but I don't know if it's as fast as it was when I first got it. I know you get used to the speed after awhile, but I don't know if I'm getting used to it or is really is slower. As for it being hard to get into first in the morning, he said that was normal. I had a skewed idea of what clutch slipping was, so it turns out the clutch is not slipping. I still hear some whirring/whining noises that I'm sure weren't there when I first got it. So I guess I'll just drive it for now and if it takes a dump on me later on, I have all the paperwork saying that the dealers looked at it and they saw nothing nothing wrong so I'm not at fault.

I feel like a complete idiot for that floor mat thing. My dad asked me if that was the case the very first day, but I was too spun up about my car to consider something stupid like that. Feel free to point and laugh.

:hysterical:

Not laughing at you but that has to be a refreashing to know you dont need a new clutch or tranny. Can't take yourself to seriouslly these days.

Not sure I agree on the fluid getting dark. It's brake fluid, and uses the same natural rubber cups/seals as the brake system. Brake fluid takes a long time to darken. What about the pieces you said you say floating in there?

I also have to take issue with Scyry on the pressure plate not engaging properly because of the clutch hydraulic system. The clutch engages the flywheel purely by the brute force of metal spring pressure. If the hydraulics fail, then you can't DISengage the clutch properly. Hydraulic problems shouldn't cause the clutch to slip because it's only function is to push it away when you push in on the clutch pedal, not hold it in place. I suspect he meant it wasn't disengaging properly. Minor point, I guess :)

Clutch/Whatever it is update.

Goat ran GREAT today. Clutch was firmer. Went into first no prob, GINORMUS increase in acceleration. 3rd feels like 3rd instead of 5th or 6th. Way more than night and day. It's that big of a difference. But according to four dealers, there's nothing wrong with my car at all. I asked them all if they've ever driven one of these, because they didn't see anything wrong with the performance at all, but I guess I should have specified "driven" as more than just driving it around front after you change the oil. So the problem is intermittent now. Great. it'll be even harder to convince somebody there's something wrong.

EDIT: I KNEW it wasn't the **** floormat!

Thanks for the correction mldavis.

I don't know much about the specifics of different working parts of vehicles. What I know is what I learned through taking care of problems that came up. I got it backwards in typing it. (do that often, why I usually have a few edits on my posts)

Originally posted by st8gunner@Apr 21 2005, 12:32 PM
Clutch/Whatever it is update.

Goat ran GREAT today. Clutch was firmer. Went into first no prob, GINORMUS increase in acceleration. 3rd feels like 3rd instead of 5th or 6th. Way more than night and day. It's that big of a difference. But according to four dealers, there's nothing wrong with my car at all. I asked them all if they've ever driven one of these, because they didn't see anything wrong with the performance at all, but I guess I should have specified "driven" as more than just driving it around front after you change the oil. So the problem is intermittent now. Great. it'll be even harder to convince somebody there's something wrong.

EDIT: I KNEW it wasn't the **** floormat!
Any idea on what the problem was? Could be that the clutch finally burned off and is engaging properlly again.

How is clutch fluid supposed to look? Not like this I'm sure. The last dealer drained, filled, and bled my clutch. That was two days ago. Fluid looks like a** already. Something is amiss here.

EDIT: Figuring how to post a **** pic. PM's with how-to's will be thanked with cash, money, or cash money. :unsure:

If you open a new can of DOT-4 brake fluid (clutch hydraulic systems use brake fluid), it is a very pale, oily fluid, about the color of American light lager beer. It is a synthetic "ether" and doesn't normally change color with use. It is hygroscopic which means it will absorb water from the atmosphere which is why the reservoir caps have one-way valves in the caps to allow a slight amount of air in only when and if fluid level drops. You should never take the cap off except to add fluid to minimize the amount of moisture that will be added. That is also why you always want to use a fresh, sealed can of fluid, not an old can that has been sitting on the shelf for a year or two.

That said, there are two main sources of contaminants that will cause a color change. Rust in the system caused by moisture, and deterioration of rubber cup seals in the master and slave cylinders. The moisture is kept out by leaving the cap on at all times (which is why the reservoirs are transparent), and the cup deterioration is retarded by using the proper DOT-4 fluid. Any other type of brake fluid in the brake or clutch system WILL cause deterioration of the black rubber cups which will turn fluid dark. I would insist on a total system flush until the color is normal. My 05 has over 4,000 miles on it and the fluid is still clean as the day I got it.

Originally posted by mldavis@Apr 21 2005, 06:26 PM
If you open a new can of DOT-4 brake fluid (clutch hydraulic systems use brake fluid), it is a very pale, oily fluid, about the color of American light lager beer. It is a synthetic "ether" and doesn't normally change color with use. It is hygroscopic which means it will absorb water from the atmosphere which is why the reservoir caps have one-way valves in the caps to allow a slight amount of air in only when and if fluid level drops. You should never take the cap off except to add fluid to minimize the amount of moisture that will be added. That is also why you always want to use a fresh, sealed can of fluid, not an old can that has been sitting on the shelf for a year or two.

That said, there are two main sources of contaminants that will cause a color change. Rust in the system caused by moisture, and deterioration of rubber cup seals in the master and slave cylinders. The moisture is kept out by leaving the cap on at all times (which is why the reservoirs are transparent), and the cup deterioration is retarded by using the proper DOT-4 fluid. Any other type of brake fluid in the brake or clutch system WILL cause deterioration of the black rubber cups which will turn fluid dark. I would insist on a total system flush until the color is normal. My 05 has over 4,000 miles on it and the fluid is still clean as the day I got it.
I KNEW it wasn't supposed to be gray/black/whatever. Wanna tell me how to post a pic? I can show you how nasty it is.

The clutch fluid discoloration is normal, but is not normally changed in color that quickly. The brake fluid is affected by heat, a brake system can dissipate heat far better than a clutch hydraulic system that is running hot. The fluid may have initially gotten burnt from the floor mat issue(failure to fully disengage) given that the heat from the clutch friction is easily transferred to the slave cylinder. I'd just drive the car, enjoy it and not worry since it's under warranty :)

Originally posted by TEK GTO@Apr 21 2005, 10:13 PM
The clutch fluid discoloration is normal, but is not normally changed in color that quickly. The brake fluid is affected by heat, a brake system can dissipate heat far better than a clutch hydraulic system that is running hot. The fluid may have initially gotten burnt from the floor mat issue(failure to fully disengage) given that the heat from the clutch friction is easily transferred to the slave cylinder. I'd just drive the car, enjoy it and not worry since it's under warranty :)
Agreed.

I will stick by my initial recommendation to have it flushed and refilled with clean, clear fluid. The brake fluid on my 150,000 mile T/A wasn't that dark.

i have already had mine in to have the clutch serviced 05m6 with about 1000 miles on it the slave cylinder was leaking around the input hose from the reservoir . they told me they had already recieved a service bulletin about this problem and had already manuf. a new part to solve the problem . that was a month ago they fixed it and this morning i couldn't get it to go in gear until i pumped the clutch pedal several times . i poped the hood and of course the reservoir was empty . so i guess another trip to the dealer. :jumpon:

Hey guys,

I was washing my goat at my buddies house and I was telling him about the hell I've been going through with my clutch it whatever it is, and he was looking at my clutch reservoir and pointed out something that me and 4 dealers missed: The reservoir cap is black, but in some spots the cap is white and blistered. He said it was prolly because it got too **** hotand melted the cap partially. That's what it looks like to me. pics to follow.

Could that be part of the problem? :jumpon:

Originally posted by st8gunner@Apr 24 2005, 05:14 PM
The reservoir cap is black, but in some spots the cap is white and blistered. He said it was prolly because it got too **** hotand melted the cap partially.
No way the clutch fluid gets that hot unless your car's been in a fire.

Originally posted by mldavis+Apr 24 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mldavis @ Apr 24 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-st8gunner@Apr 24 2005, 05:14 PM
The reservoir cap is black, but in some spots the cap is white and blistered. He said it was prolly because it got too **** hotand melted the cap partially.
No way the clutch fluid gets that hot unless your car's been in a fire.[/b][/quote]
Guess mine was in a blaze then:

EDIT: See the bubbles at about 2 o'clock position?

Have you tried to see if you can find the leak? If its leaking from the cap then you should be able to follow a trail of clutch fluid, which could be causing your problem.

Hard to tell from the pic what's happening. Are you getting bubbles in the clutch fluid itself?

All the hydraulic clutch does is use brake fluid as a piston between the master cylinder (clutch pedal) and the slave cylinder (at the clutch). Since fluid is relatively incompressible, pushing one causes an essentially identical displacement at the other end, modified of course by different piston sizes. But there is very little (comparatively) pressure needed to move clutch springs. Compare that to the much greater pressures generated in braking where you have higher forces generated, plus the high heat being dissipated by the brake rotors and pads at the wheel pistons, plus longer (usually) periods of pressure than a quick clutch stab or two (or five). I still can't buy it. <_<

Goat's been fine the last 3 or 4 days or so. Clutch fluid is a little low, think it's leaking somewhere. There's also a bunch of tiny black specks lining the wall of my clutch reservoir. Gonna try to get up to NY next weekend, take a few days of leave, and go to Colandrea where I bought it and ask them to take it apart and ACTUALLY LOOK at my car.

Bingo, same exact problem here. Car is in the dealer now being diagnosed. Clutch fluid is dirty with floaties and dropped about a 1/2". Clutch makes noise when disengaging usually at slow speeds. Sounds kind of like a clanging or chattering sound. My car has a build date of Nov 04 under the hood on the stamp. Sounds like we have a common thread here. Car also had a bad burning smell for first 500 miles or so. I thought it was the cats breaking in, but maybe not. Car currently has 2000 miles on it. As far a power goes, you may want to check your plugs. All the factory plugs were gapped at .35 vice the .40 which the manual states. I had some money to burn so I put the Denso .4mm irridiums in and gapped them around .43. Also these plugs are super easy to change compared to the 99 T/A I used to own. Car runs much smoother and feels like it pulls better based on SOTP dyno.

05 Blk/Blk M6 stock except for Denso Irridiums

Originally posted by Scott5000@Apr 28 2005, 09:05 PM
Bingo, same exact problem here. Car is in the dealer now being diagnosed. Clutch fluid is dirty with floaties and dropped about a 1/2". Clutch makes noise when disengaging usually at slow speeds. Sounds kind of like a clanging or chattering sound. My car has a build date of Nov 04 under the hood on the stamp. Sounds like we have a common thread here. Car also had a bad burning smell for first 500 miles or so. I thought it was the cats breaking in, but maybe not. Car currently has 2000 miles on it. As far a power goes, you may want to check your plugs. All the factory plugs were gapped at .35 vice the .40 which the manual states. I had some money to burn so I put the Denso .4mm irridiums in and gapped them around .43. Also these plugs are super easy to change compared to the 99 T/A I used to own. Car runs much smoother and feels like it pulls better based on SOTP dyno.

05 Blk/Blk M6 stock except for Denso Irridiums
Scott,

Keep me informed as to what your dealer says! None of the dealers around here will crack mine open, some just because the computer isn't giving any fault codes. If I find out what's wrong with yours, I can save time by telling my dealer in NY to look at that first, and see if it's the same thing, which it sounds like it is. Although I still get the burning smell, usually after some highway driving. I've got about 1800~ or so miles on mine.


EDIT: Checked mine and it has a build date of Oct 04.......

Well so far the dealer has flushed the clutch fluid due to the dirty reservoir and floaties. They said the dirtyness was due to oils used during assembly. The technician said he wanted to talk to me tomorrow about the clutch when I pick it up. When he first test drove with me he was definately thinking slave cylinder, but he would have to call GM tech support to see what they said. Today when I was talking to the service advisor for an update, they were giving me vibes that the condition was normal, but they would talk more in depth to me about it tomorrow. Maybe GM tech thinks the condition is normal or they need more evidence of failure before they allow the dealers to crack it open. At least I have this condition documented in case something else happens a few thousand miles down the road. They did say there were a couple ECM updates they went ahead and did though, thought that was kinda cool. Also had them check the alignment and although it didn't feel that bad all four tires were out, so I might of had some premature tire wear had I not had them check and fix it. Hopefully I'll have some more info tomorrow.

I wouldn't buy into that story too quickly. The 4th dealer I went to drained and flushed my reservoir, and here it is a week later and the fluid is black again. In fact, those pics of my fluid are from 2 or 3 days AFTER they changed it. And that still doesn't explain the burning smell. At 1800 miles, I'm pretty sure my cats/exhaust/whatever are all nice and broken in. Plus going into second now, hot or cold, high rpm's or low, it's like click-click-clank, into second. Feels like it hits three small bumps before it's all the way in. I'd hate to think that I'm doing damage to my tranny, because I'd have a better chance of winning the **** lottery than getting the dealer to replace the tranny in addition to whatever's wrong.

My brand new 96 TransAm had some synchronizer problems at 1,000 miles. They refused to open it up, just replaced the whole transmission. I sold it at 150,000 miles with no further problems. I don't think they like field mechanics messing around inside the Tremecs.

I saw a fellow goat herder at Barnes and Noble a few minutes ago. It was a 04 blk/blk M6. I looked at his clutch fluid, and it was blacker than the **** car. And he had HUGE floaties in his. It had about 8K miles on it. He never noticed a problem with his clutch, so he never looked. Maybe this black clutch stuff IS normal....

i have 3100 miles on my 05 m6 and the fluid has always been clear , they have replaced the master cylinder and i hope that has solved all my problems . :rolleyes:

I've noticed a burning smell in my '05 goat too...I think it's the tires :D

But seriously...I have noticed a bit of a faint burning smell, but figured that it was either breaking in or being that I am a new stick driver, I thought that maybe I was just letting the clutch slip a little too much. I'll take a look at my fluid today, but I haven't felt any clutch problems as far as engagement. It will snap my neck if I let it go....

6500 miles on my 04blkM6...clutch went limp like bob dole a few days ago...just all of a sudden-ish after a drive back from pittsburgh (pulled up to the turnpike tollbooth in toledo, opened the window, smelled like the underside of the car was on fire)...i had it on cruise control for 160 miles @ ~80mph.

i can't spin tire now lanching in 1st, and theres no way i can even get a chirp jacking it into second either. what the heck happened?!?!?! could it be that the pressure plate for some reason didn't have the umph to keep the clutch disks against the fly? is this something the bolt torque TSB is for? i've put over 125,000 miles on manual tranny cars since 2000 and i've never had a wasted clutch before...i would hardly imagine that i'd do it this soon.

any ideas? :blink:

Does the engine flare when you aren't getting power? What is the tach saying to you? Only way a hydraulic clutch can slip is to get clutch fluid on the clutch lining. That's what I said way back up yonder. Anyone check that out? If you suddenly can't get the clutch to work the pressure plate, then you're out of hydraulic fluid. So where is it going? Dripping on the exhaust from the reservoir would cause a burning smell. Any drops on the ground under the car?

no engine flare, haven't noticed any drips on the ground yet...it certainly doesn't feel like the engine is free-revving at all while the clutch is clamped on. . i checked the clutch fluid reservoir and its a deep brown with lil black floaties in it. i'm guessing that isn't too positive.

the clutch feels and acts like its got 90,000 miles on it...the release point feels like its about two inches or so shorter ("higher" if you will), the clutch throw itself is very light (like a civic...lol), and it doesn't feel like its got nearly the clamping force it did...kinda like the engine is too powerful for the clutch disks or something.

i feels like a very worn clutch, but i refuse to even entertain the possibility that it has to do with me clutching like a monkey...i've been driving a stick for a while and for very many miles...clutches don't just burn out after 6,000 miles, even if you learn on one!

also, i could understand if this happened while racing or something and i just worked a hot clutch too hard...but this happened on a freeway on cruise control...i didn't even put my hand or foot on a part of the drivetrain for two hours and 30 minutes.

for the record, i'm trying to get a good grasp on the problem here before/if i take it to my local friendly pontiac dealer...i quiet frankly don't trust them after telling me repeatedly that they don't know anything about fixing the spotlight MPH indiciator lamp even though there's a TSB for it.

thanks for the feedback so far...i appreciate it

Sounds like you have a lazy dealer. All the info on the GTO seems to be online, not in a printed manual. I'm still waiting for Helms to send me the service manual I ordered.

BUT, if you're not getting an engine flare then the clutch should be holding OK. No fluid loss so hydraulics can't factor in (it shouldn't anyway unless fluid flows uphill). Soft pedal pressure also suggests hydraulics are OK if the clutch is releasing. Look for a broken spring somewhere in the chain either at the pedal or the clutch itself.

I had to take leave to go to the dealer I bought from. Going Thursday. Way back in my first post I said the first thing I noticed was the clutch was super easy to push in. This is :bs: . None of the dealers here (VA) will do anything more than test drive it and hook it up to a computer. Everyone wants a test drive, nobody wants to actually try and find out what it is.

Hey guys,

I just found out about this site through another forum. I own an 05 M6 and I'm having some of the problems you all are saying. Currently have 3800 miles

1. Clutch Friction Point is about 2 inches before the clutch is out. (About 10" of no clutch)

2. Car doesn't accelerate that much over 5G RPM (is there slippage?)

3. Problems putting trans in 1st or Reverse after a few hours of the car being turned off. Seems to be getting worse.

4. After backing out of the garage and going into 1st to move forward about 5 feet, I INTERMITTENTLY get a S****/GRRR sound coming from the Front Passenger side area, around the wheel well. Some people have commented that it was the ABS Check, but if that was the case, then I'm sure I would hear it all the time. Some others even said it was the throwout bearings.

I took the car to the Service Dept. for the friction point and 1st/Reverse Shift problems, and couldn't find any problems with it.

Do any of you have similar problems, or could chime in with possiblilities why this is happening and what I can do for my dealer to otake a look at it.

Thank you
Chris
http://members.cox.net/05gto

well clutch reservoir went emty again still have a leak somewhere . i have had everything but the slave cylinder replaced :jumpon: back to the service department for the third time same problem . i seem to get 3 or 4 weeks of fun in between visits to the service department :angry: . surely they will eventually find a fix for this problem ya think?? :blink:

My 04 M6 has 27k miles on it. I have had sporadic clutch problems for the past 10k miles. I finally got sick of dealing with it and brought to the dealer. We started with the fluid. They showed me a tech bulletin from GM that was very clear that if there are no problems with the clutch DO NOT change the fluid due to a discoloring or if there is what appears to be grease floating.

I did however prove that I do have a problem with the clutch, pedal catches only at the bottom some days and only at the top others.

In the end they replaced the flywheel/pressure plate assembly (not the clutch itself). Today I get the car back. Pressing the pedal in feels great, just like new. However the take up on the pedal is very springy and uneven. To the point that just off the floor, when releasing the clutch, it actually throws your lag back. I stalled the car twice, whcih I haven't done the entire time I've owned it

Now what could this be. MLDAVIS I appreciate your feedback, what are your thoughts.

The only thing that I know of that would cause that "kickback" feeling is an improperly installed master cylinder spring or clutch pedal spring, or a bad one. Should be simple enough. I must admit, I'm still waiting for my Helm service book, so they may be doing some engineering mods that aren't "standard" hydraulic clutch stuff.

Guess I'll have to go crawl under mine and look it over. But it does sound like a mechanical spring problem. There shouldn't be any way the hydraulic system would feed the clutch pedal back at you that way. Only springs in the whole system (AFAIK) are at the slave (where they worked), at the master cylinder, and possible on the clutch pedal itself if they use one as an assist there.

Where's our Holden mechanic?

I just checked my clutch fluid. At 2800 miles is an amber color. Nothing floating in it. I also by playing around found that if I have my work boots on and don't have my foot just right, as I depress the clutch my boot will hit where the dead pedal should be. At that point I can't get the clutch any further down. It feels like it is fully depressed but isn't. If I try to shift like that it is very hard to get the shifter into the next gear.
On another note, try this with getting it into first in the morning. If it won't go in easily, instead of trying to force it, go into second and then into first. Sometimes this gets the synchros spinning at a different speed and it slips in easier.

The clutch "dead pedal" area in the 05 is pretty close to the left of the clutch pedal. If you have big feet (like I do) you'll find insufficient room between the dead pedal and the clutch to rest your big foot there when shifting. The pedals are rather small and close together to assist with driving (heel and toeing, etc.). It's dark down there. Make sure you aren't hitting the mat or your foot when clutching. I know it sounds stupid, but check it out.

I have had several times when I couldn't get the transmission into reverse, always on a cold start. Solution is to re-align gear teeth (no, the synchros won't help here, usually) by putting it into 1st, rock it very slightly forward, then it will engage reverse easily. Never cram the lever or you'll bend something or screw up the linkage adjustment. Those are some big, heavy gear teeth in there and they don't always line up when you shut down.

Originally posted by mldavis@Jun 3 2005, 06:37 AM
The clutch "dead pedal" area in the 05 is pretty close to the left of the clutch pedal. If you have big feet (like I do) you'll find insufficient room between the dead pedal and the clutch to rest your big foot there when shifting.
OK i know this isn't a dead pedal posting but that has me somewhat worried. I'm planning on putting down the down payment on my GTO on my 19th birthday (gift to myself of course). I wear a size 10, now the dead pedal is by no means a deal breaker but would be useful on the longer drives, i wear a size 10 and im either in sneakers or boots, should i be ready to just change my foot position or should i be ok?

I have an 04 M6, not sure if this applies, and a size 12 with no problems.

I'm a size 13 and I have an '05 goat with the dead pedal space in it, and most of the time I have no problems with the width of the space. But I do have one pair of dress shoes with a very wide sole that seems to catch just slightly every now and then. It's not a big deal, but it is a little scary sometimes when I hit the brakes quickly and need to push the clutch in and my foot catches slightly as I am moving from the dead pedal. It only happens with that one pair of shoes though.

Carnivore80 must be a hit with the ladies

well the slave cylinder was leaking very badly according to the service guy . he has replaced it with a new part and hopes he doesn't have to see me for any clutch problems again . with this replacement slave cylinder that gets everything in the system but the clutch disk and pressure plate <_< . please let this solve my problems :D

Now that I've driven the car a few hundred miles since the repair, the clutch is workign perfectly. Did some hard launches and shifft, hooks up great, pedal feel is best ever.

Interesting point on this ordeal... nearly every magazine review and article of the '04 M6 complained about the trans and the way it shifted... feeling vague and slushy. Since my clutch repair the slushiness has disappeared, I never, ever have a problem getting into first like I used to. It shifts much more cleanly than before. The notchy-ness is still there, but that's how it's designed.

Originally posted by jray1@Jun 7 2005, 09:10 PM
well the slave cylinder was leaking very badly according to the service guy
Glad to see my analytical skills haven't been entirely lost (see my earlier speculative post on possible solutions). B)

Any fixes on this? I have the same chattering sound releasing the clutch pedal in neutral after coming out of gear.

Also have the reverse issue (system bled, lockout solenoid replaced; neither helped), down on power, "weak" feeling clutch, etc.

My car is 05 with 1400 miles. Purchased 5/05 built 12/04.

I wonder if these earlier production 05's got some carryover problems from the 04's.

Originally posted by QS05GTO@Jun 16 2005, 10:58 PM
Any fixes on this? I have the same chattering sound releasing the clutch pedal in neutral after coming out of gear.

Also have the reverse issue (system bled, lockout solenoid replaced; neither helped), down on power, "weak" feeling clutch, etc.

My car is 05 with 1400 miles. Purchased 5/05 built 12/04.

I wonder if these earlier production 05's got some carryover problems from the 04's.
I've been to the dealer too many times for this, and they all say it's normal. I'm just going to drive it until something explodes or falls out in the street, then have it towed to the dealer, and become the biggest a****** customer they've ever seen. New this, new that, better yet, new car, or at least a decent loaner. I'll make the biggest friggin scene ever. I'll scare customers away for miles.

yay!!!! i got my goat back from Somerset Pontiac today.

they fixed the MPH spotlight on my gauge cluster, which was cool. they have a dampener for my driver's side front seat rails on order, and i think they even fixed the obnoxious rattle in my driver's side door from where the door lock mechanism sucks.

but guess what they didn't fix because it "seems to be in fine working condition?"

yup...you guessed it...my Nerf clutch. its truely wonderful that its working perfectly...i mean, its great that i have so much slippage after 6,000 miles that i have to really put some stick into it to spin tires while launching on soaking wet roads. its awesome that the clutch's "catch" point varies between just a light pressure on the clutch pedal all the way to having to hammer the clutch pedal into the floorboards...from literally one shift to the next. i couldn't be more pleased with the fact that every time i make a long-distance freeway excursion on cruise control i am greeted with a thick pungent stench of deep-fried clutchplate or clutch-fluid flambe` as i pull into the turnpike tollgate.

i also love the fact that the gear changes aren't supposed to be "smooth" and that its supposed to be a "ratchety" and "overall vague" as my serviceman so eloquently put it. hell, who would want a shifter that shifts effortlessly and meaningfully into the correct gear?

/rant..

Originally posted by st8gunner@Apr 27 2005, 07:19 PM
Goat's been fine the last 3 or 4 days or so. Clutch fluid is a little low, think it's leaking somewhere. There's also a bunch of tiny black specks lining the wall of my clutch reservoir. Gonna try to get up to NY next weekend, take a few days of leave, and go to Colandrea where I bought it and ask them to take it apart and ACTUALLY LOOK at my car.
As Scott5000 said, the dark color is due to the oils from preassembly. That is also what would cause the “floaties” or “chuncks” lining the edge of the cylinder wall. The oils, possible contamination from dirt, humidity, and high heat will cause the discoloration. The “floaties” are nothing more than the water and oils binding together. If you were to take them out, you would see that putting it between your fingers would make it dissolve. Now if it is actual rubber or if you have a shinny metallic film on the top of the fluid, then you will need it flushed and have the slave or master cylinder replaced and the throw out bearing may also need to be replaced.

The burning smell could be a leak at the throw at bearing. As it is driven, the fluid will get on the pressure plate and burn in turn causing lose of power due to the fluid being on the plate. The pressure plate would need to be replaced and the flywheel would need to be turned and checked that it did not get warped from excessive heat build up.

Good luck

Andrew

Hello All Fellow GTO psychos.

I am new to this forum and stumbled upon this thread about the clutch problems. I am having a problem with my car after 1600 miles where a fluid seems to be leaking from the front onto the ground.

Initially when I bought my Goat, it was from an out of state dealer so I had to bring the car to get inspected by my own local mechanic. When my mechanic had it up on the lift he noticed that my rack and pinion was leaking oil.

What is the chance of that on a car with 600 miles on it? What do I do? The dealership that I bought it from basically told me that I don't have to bring it to them, any Pontiac dealer can service it. The service manager is an a** for saying that don't you think.

Anybody else hear of this leaking rack and pinion problem?

Originally posted by Banana Goat@Aug 11 2005, 12:50 PM
The service manager is an a** for saying that don't you think.

Not really, hes basically telling you that you don't have to drive it back to the other state and that a local place could take care of it.

I'v herd of the clutch leaking before, but not the power steering...

I am sorry I should have went into greater detail about my problems so far with my Goat since delivery.

First off when I picked up the car after dealer prep, they never took the glue off of the parking brake handle, I had to. Then two days later when reclining the seat, I noticed a one inch gash on the seat bolster drivers side. The next day I noticed that my car was squealing the drivers side tire whenever making a left turn and the traction control kept going on. I check the tire with less than 200 miles on the car and it is low. I fill it up and check the rest which are fine. Think nothing of it then a week later doing the same thing.

I call the dealership and tell them about the seat and the tire. I drop the car off for the seat and they fix it for free. Then they check my tire and tell me that they don't cover wear and tear on the tire. Even though this started the minute that I took the car off the lot basically. The service manager was rude when I called about the seat being ready and he then couldn't wait to talk to me about the tire. First he said the tire would be 165.00 installed out the door. I say to him go ahead and order it. He said it would take two days so I get a loaner for a week which was Montana minivan.

They also forgot to send me my registration stuff and instead of transferring plates they applied for new ones and did not tell me about it. I had to go to motor vehicles and send in all kinds of paperwork to prove that one car is traded in and a new one is in it's place. Same with my insurance company, big mess.

When I went to pick up my GTO the bill was going to be over 200.00 dollars now! I asked why the discrepancy between 165.00 and 200.00 a week later. The service manager says he does not remember saying that to me. I say to him that the dealership should kick in a discount for the tire because I had the car for less than a weekend and got a flat, they should after all the other bull just kick in at least half for the tire. He said too bad tires are not their problem. I got the owner involved and they gave me 20% off the total which I wound up taking.

Then after that is when I found out that the rack and pinion was leaking from my local mechanic and then I called the service manager. That is when he had an attitude in his tone and telling me that it is not a big deal for a new car to be leaking like mine. How come they did not notice this when it was up on the lift? That is when he told me to basically take it somewhere else, then I told him that I am bringing it to them because I know what he is like and what to expect, I don't want to go to a new place and start off all over again new.

the first thing i would do is find a new dealer that appreciates my buisness and tell the other one to kiss my @$$. :D