I am typically a Dodge guy, but since they decided to make the Charger a family sedan I decided to try out the GTO. Afterall, my 1st car in high school was an old 77 Grand Prix and I loved it even though it was 20+ yrs old.

Welll......This is my 1st brand new car. The 1st time I take it out for a significant drive, about 200 miles, the car dies and stalls and I have to push it into a parking lot. It gets towed into the dealer then next day. Now it is 3 wks later and they still can't fix it. Apperently, the computer is messed up. The regular Goodwrench guys couldn't figure out the computer codes so they had to get a GM engineer and then a specialized GTO engineer in to work on it. They replace the computer and then have to download some programs from GM and try to program them into the car, which hasn't worked yet. (I'm starting to wonder if I bought a car or an IBM) The GTO engineer said this has happened to 16 other 2005 GTO's. GM will not let me sell it back and buy another one, and if it takes another week to fix I will be able to turn it in via the Lemon Law.

Now, I like Mopar, but I've always had a thing for Pontiac ( Not chevy and definitely not Ford), but GM is really ticking me off here, and they may have lost a future Pontiac customer. From now on it will either be DaimlerChrysler, foreign, or collector car for me

I should have bought a 69 GTO instead. I could fix that. This computer **** ticks me off.

Anyone else, hear about anything like this.

If your that pissed about it, you could wait until next year when dodge releases the new challenger. I'm sorry guys but I think the goat might have to go depending on how this thing looks.

I've heard about the Challenger as well, but I always heard it forecasted for 2010. I would be very surprised to see it next year already.

I've heard about the Challenger too. I may just trade this GTO in for it when that happens. Assuming this thing ever gets fixed or the Lemon Law lets me sell it back. I would doubt the Challenger would come out next year.

I like Mopar because, in my opinion, they had the coolest and best selection of muscle cars of any auto manufacturer. However, while GM has been making the Firebird and Camaro for 30 straight years (until now) and Ford has made the Mustang, apparently Chrysler never thought that some people might still be interested in a Cuda, real Charger, or Roadrunner. I think they should have made Plymouth a sports car division, sort of like Pontiac is for GM.

Speaking of the other GTO comments I've seen posted around. There are a lot of die hards trying to defend it's bland appearance and poor sales. First of all, it is a very bland looking car for its performance, which is unfortunate. I've driven it and it is awesome to drive (except when it dies and doesn't start for 3 wks). However, when most people are looking to buy a sports/muscle car they want it to look the part. Not look like the generic 90's jelly bean shape. When I first heard they were redoing the GTO, I got very excited (finally there bringing back the old muscle cars). However, once I saw it I was extremely dissappointed. The Grand Prix looked better.

The hood scoops help as well as the 400 hp. But don't try and excuse a mistake. They need to make the sports cars look the part. And when one absolutely doesn't work they need to let the new buyer sell it back and get a different one or they will truly go broke.

What some call bland, others call mature. If you want a cop magnet go buy a Camaro.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You people keep defending the bland design of the car. First of all, I bought one. The hood scoops and 400 hp engine were enough to win me over (Now it just has to start and actually drive). However, as I stated, my first reaction to bringing back the GTO name was WOW!!! My first reaction to seeing the actual car was What!?!? This is not my biased wanting to defend Pontiac no matter what opinion, this was my initial gut reaction. Honestly, the Grand Prix looks sportier to me, and that isn't exotic by any means.

If you want "mature" buy a Cadillac. They are pretty fast and very nice and very mature. GTO has never been a "mature" based car. Yes, Pontiac does have its own reputation to live up to. When you create a historically classic car and bring it back, you need to follow the same principles.

A muscle car is not a mature car, and when I think of GTO I think of muscle, not maturity. If that isn't what you want, than you shouldn't care about GTO in the first place. The same goes for the new Charger. Dodge really blew it. They already have the 300c and Magnum. Why do we need another version of the same family sedan? How about a muscle/sports car as the legendary nameplate suggests?

"Mature" is a question of age, competence and sophistication. Since I don't still pop zits every morning in front of a mirror, I guess I might qualify.

My first car was a Chrysler product back when they built pretty decent cars. Then came the "K" cars and a host of government bail out money to keep them from sinking. My father owned a "K" car that never worked right. Computer glitches never were fixed after swapping computers, wiring, etc. Chrysler today still fights computer problems as does everyone else including Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc.

I bought my Goat mainly because it DIDN'T look like a kids car. I passed on the Mustang because it did and always has. I like my cars fast and competent. A screaming chicken on the hood, or a giant whale-tail spoiler, or big tuna-can resonators might be cool to the Saturday night street roamers, but they would keep me from buying the car. Do you call a 545i, or an M5 "mature"? No screaming chickens there, and you don't see 'em at the strip, either.

Pontiac is selling every GTO they can import. My local dealer can't get enough of them. Mature doesn't have to mean "anemic", but it doesn't have to wear diapers, either. No regrets here after 11,000 miles. Fantastic car!

I agree that the GTO is a simple looking car, the sports apperance package does help it out alot, but it still is kind of aestehticly boring. It may appeal more to an older or more "mature" crowd but I have to agree with unclejesse in that I was dissapointed when I saw it for the first time. The very first GTO I saw was a purple 04 at the Honolulu international auto show. I didnt even notice what it was a GTO until I looked at the badges. I just think that it is more of an overpowered luxury sedan than a muscle car. So I guess Im not "mature" enough to enjoy the GTO's curvatious body.

If the new challenger comes out and looks retro, then I do beleive it will sell just aswell as the new mustang did. The reason the car could theoretically be out by next year is that it is based on the same platform as the charger, magnum, and 300. It will be a two door and have its own seperate interior design. It would be very wise of Dodge to have it out by next year to catch some of the Mustang sales and have a tough competitor for Ford and GM. Either way, the Detroit auto show is going to ne great with the possible unvieling of the new camaro as well.

Nothing good came out of any auto manufacturer during the 80s.

Sorry about your misfortune. Would the car run at all? I'm wondering if you also didn't have the accelerator pedal sensor that goes bad on many an 05. The sensor fails and you are left limping around in "reduced power" mode. I hope your dealer looked into that first. If not you are 1 of 16 with the problem out of 12,000 or so 2005 models. Sorry about that. Hopefully they will get it fixed soon and after a few days of driving it you'll again forget about the Mopars.

And let's please not turn this into a GTO looks thread, it's been done to DEATH, enough is enough. Let's try to keep it to the computer glitch problem. :)

I don't have to defend my GTO. Almost every week, someone gives me a thumbs up, or I get "Cool Car" shouted at me. I've had other drivers do a "Pass and Review" maneuver around the Goat. I didn't buy the car to attract attention, it looks pretty good to me though. The clincher was the way it performs and drives. It's much more refined than my T/A, and faster to boot. Nope, no defence necessary. And, to each his own!

:afro:

To satisfy Orbit Orange I will just discuss the computer problems in this reply.

It did work fine when I first bought the car. I drove it home (about 4-5 miles), I worked so I didn't really have a chance to drive it until the Fri of Labor day wkend. Then, I took it out for 200 miles and it died and would not start. I don't know what the dealer mechanics checked at first, but I do know that there is a GTO specialist engineer working on this right now, and they still haven't gotten it fixed in over 3 wks.

Congrats to those that are trying to defend this by telling me how great their GTOs are and how proud you are. Unfortunately, that doesn't do me a whole lot of good. I still paid 35Gs for my 1st brand new car, and jumped over from Chrysler to GM and got a lemon. All GM has to do is buy the car back and let me get a different one that actually drives itself (you know like an AUTO-Mobile, or horseless carriage).

Agreed, other peoples "good feelings" about there car wont help you, however, GM does have several roads for customer relations. I'm wondering just who did you talk too, with around 200 miles on it, it stupid for GM not to take the car back, and I don't understand. In such situations, I'm a big fan of being a bigger pain in the a** then "they" want to deal with. I would start with the guy that sold me the car, telling him he wont lose a sale. you just want a different one, taking him with you to the manager, to the service manager, to customer relations. No dealership wants someone standing in there showroom floor, telling anyone who will lesson, how you feel you have been ripped off. This all takes time, and control, you don't want them having to call the cops on you, but if your persistent, they will want to get rid of you, and resolve this.

This will be my cosmetic reply for those that want the warning. First of all, mldavis, you description of what is "mature" is very elequantly lame. I am 26 yrs old and doing my pediatric residency and a CPT in the military. That doesn't make me old, but it doesn't make me a high school zit popper. Now, that we've all clarified how mature or immature we are lets start talking about performance cars.

I do consider myself an auto enthusiast and a mature GTO is an oxymoron. No one should even be discussing how mature a GTO is. I think you may be looking for a Bonneville. Those are very mature nice luxurios, yet sporty vehicles. GTO is a MUSCLE CAR. Now, I bought a GTO so I liked it myself. But I must say that again and like torridred said the car just dissappointed me when I first laid eyes on the '04. But my jaw dropped when I heard that GTO was coming back. Why did my jaw drop? Because I have an expectation when I here the letters GTO, which is also why I was dissappointed when I saw it.

It does look a little sharper with the hood scoops, but they could have certainly done more. It has no lines or unique characteristics on the sides from the front to the rear. Just adding a little coke bottle curve to the back or a line on the side helps a lot without making it look exotic. You don't have to make it look like a Ferarri to look sharp. And all the chicken burning bologna you are talking about is silly.

To each his own, but unfortunately as so many of these threads have shown is that a large proportion of GTO fans consider the car bland. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be such a discussion. If they made it more sporty looking like the Firebird, mldavis would then be talking about how great it looks and drives. The fact is that my first gut reaction, like many others, is so what when I see the car. Yes, once you drive one it is awesome, but if I had a 400 hp engine in a Sunfire, I would also say it was awesome.

I think most would agree that the same is true for the new Charger. I realise that most people on this chat site are Pontiac people. But you must all admit that the '68-'70 Chargers were some of the best looking muscle cars ever made. And then you must admit that the new Charger is disappointing. It's a nice looking family sedan, and if that is what I was shopping for I'd get it, but I want a 2 door sports coupe.

bottom line. The designers could but a few subtle touches into the features of the GTO and make it look as tough as it sounds and drives.

(Except for mine because it doesn't start or drive itself.)

(Oh yeah, I agree with torridred. No car from the 80s was worth dirt. Even the Ferarris, Camaro's, or Firebirds. They were all jokes.)

Well from listening to your complaints it seems fairly obvious you are not pleased with the GTO. My advice would be to sell it and get yourself into the closest Mopar you can find.

I don't think anyone here is going to change your mind from the stance you are taking. We don't need to go on an on about it. It doesn't sound like the car for you. I still hope your computer problem gets fixed. Should make it much easier to trade it. If not maybe the Lemon Law will help you out.

I'm sorry but from all the griping and complaining I hear, I'd rather see someone who truly wanted a GTO in the car and you'd be happier in a Mopar it seems. Sorry to be so frank but that's what I'm getting from your posts.

Unfortunately problems happen and you were the 1 of 16 with 11,000 plus owners without that problem. :(

Hey Unclejesse, I'm sorry that your first car turned out that bad. That really does suck. Something about me, After leaving 1st AD(after kosovo) I was transferd to ft. Polk, LA. My first car was a grand prix GTP. I spent a year in downtown Baghdad. When I came home and saw the new GTO. I thougth that this car was awesome. I really thought that they did a great job. I would rather have the sleeper car(sunfire with the 400hp) then a car that is screaming attention. Sir, I love the way this car looks! I wish you the best. SSG. Griff

Agreed, If you don't like it, then sell it and get something you want. I for one am tired of the threads that the car doesn't make your ego big enough.

Well, I just got the car back. It is fixed. Apparentlly, from the factory, they did not support a couple of the wire correctly and they rubbed against the pulley coming off of the crankshaft? Of course, I was not there to see this myself, but this is what I was told. This problem was a direct result of the factory make.

I am currently dealing with GM through the Better Business Bureau. If they let me purchase a different new GTO and replace this one, I will be happy and may consider buying a new GM vehicle in the future. If they do not, then I will never purchase another GM vehicle again.

Just an honest question for you regular GM folks (and I did like my high school 77 Grand Prix a lot) Don't you agree that there really isn't a good Mopar to buy right now or for 30 yrs. The Viper is awesome but out of the regular price range. Mopar hasn't made a Camaro or Firebird, although I would say the Cuda or Challenger of 70-71 is way better than those (My opinion, and hp rating opinions). The Mopar crowd is out of options for new vehicles. The new Charger was made into a family sedan, which is awesome if I were looking for that, but I am not.

What do you guys thing? honestly. Remember, I do like Pontiac, only, not GM and even more so I hate FORD. But Pontiac is cool and it's vehicles, especially the Grand Prix has been great. But Mopar has had more options in the muscle car era

Well, I just got the car back. It is fixed. Apparentlly, from the factory, they did not support a couple of the wire correctly and they rubbed against the pulley coming off of the crankshaft

So if I am reading this correct, the computer system is not "junk" at all. It was a simple problem with a couple of wires being sheared. This could have happened by simple vibration too. The problem has been fixed and everything is fine. These things happen, that's why I check under the hood every time I pop it to check for wires and clearance issues. Now if the factory didn't secure it properly it is their fault. But the dealer has fixed it. Why do you feel the need to take this further? Is there anything else wrong? Just enjoy it. If this is your first new car, ALL new cars have little problems and quirks. They aren't perfect. Just relax and enjoy your Poncho. Sorry it seems the dealers service department seemed a bit clueless. Sounds like that's who you need to address since it took them so long, not Pontiac.

Just an honest question for you regular GM folks (and I did like my high school 77 Grand Prix a lot) Don't you agree that there really isn't a good Mopar to buy right now or for 30 yrs. The Viper is awesome but out of the regular price range. Mopar hasn't made a Camaro or Firebird, although I would say the Cuda or Challenger of 70-71 is way better than those (My opinion, and hp rating opinions). The Mopar crowd is out of options for new vehicles. The new Charger was made into a family sedan, which is awesome if I were looking for that, but I am not.

Now to give this one a shot. If you mean a 2 door coupe (4 or 5 passenger) then you are close to being on target. As for the others, the Viper is awesome, the 300C, Charger and Magnum give you a lot for the money if you don't mind a sedan. The SRT-4 Neon gives a lot of bang for the buck for a FWD pocket rocket. The Crossfire is a little overpriced but the SRT 6 version has plenty of oomph. The only thing they are really missing is what you are looking for, a 2 door 4/5 passenger coupe with RWD and a V8. And guess what the Challenger will come out to fill that need soon.

I just wish Pontiac would have an answer to the LX's and the Viper but they don't.

I hope you enjoy your GTO. Just relax a little and don't be so seemingly uptight about it. I really don't see why you'd need a different GTO when the one you have is working fine now right? Just think, you get the one and only kink out of the GTO you have, you get another one and it may have another quirk that needs to be addressed and it would have to be fixed. Then you'd get even more frustrated.

Just go out and drive it for a couple of days and see if you really want a new Mopar. Have fun. :)

I think I would have felt just as bad if my 04 had performance problems right off the boat. My dealer has had problems with my front end alingment. But thats about all. The stiching on my rear seats on the top have seperated , but I am getting new seats from the factory. Other than that it is an awesome car.

The 64 wasent flashey and neither was the 65 or my 66. But I wasent into flash, I liked the power.

I can tell you that when you smoke your first Stang or Challenger so bad you scare your self you will forget all about you troubles.

Give it a go, and when that first Stang finally rolls up beside you tell them "RIDE IT LIKE A FORD!". :friday:

Unclejesse will note that I traded in a 96 TransAm for the 05 Goat, owned a 70 GTX (Charger equivalent), so I know a bit about both Chrysler prodicts and the GM "F" body after a few miles. I was also a GM Master Technician and was a GM service manager for 12 years. I also don't necessarily consider an M.D. degree as a guarantee of maturity with respect to automotive savvy. You've had your driver's license for 10 years, I've had mine for 45 years. I came from that era and owned such cars so I'll stake claim to being "mature".

So it all boils down to what you like and what you want and what you can afford. I think you've confused a "mature" driver with a "mature" automotive design with the Bonneville remark. If a "mature" GTO is an oxymoron to you, what would you like them to build? The old GTOs were poor aerodynamic designs, terrible handling cars with marginal brakes and inadequate tires for the power. They were also power-rated differently than today's cars so a direct horsepower comparison on the spec sheets is misleading.

The newest GTO is aerodynamically sensible, has adequate PBR brakes, "W" rated tires, an efficient 6-speed available, and a tight quiet body with class interior over fully independent suspension, gives decent fuel mileage for 400 lb/ft. torque, has world-class leather bucket seats, a decent stereo and doesn't scream "steal me" when parked at the local mall. I don't see that as "backsliding."

Honestly, what would you have them build to meet your (apparently) retro GTO requirements? What body platform? Retro styling? Aerodynamic requirements (or not)? Plastic seat covers? AM radio or 8-track? Solid rear axle? Chrome bumpers? White sidewall bias ply tires?

Not trying to be cute here, but I guess I don't get it. :huh:

Well first off, I'm sorry you had so much trouble with your GTO. I know that if I shelled out 30k+ on a new car, I'd probably be ready to punch a hole through the wall if it broke down right after I got it. I'm glad you got it fixed and hopefully that's all the trouble you'll have out of it for a long time. This being said, I'm with orbit on wanting to get another car. Why would you still want a different one after the fact that this one has just been inspected top to bottom and fixed? And as for defending a GTO's looks, I don't even own one as of yet and I personally love the way the 05's look. They're just flashy enough to showcase their speed, but at the same time they don't make somebody over the age of 25 feel out of place driving one. I guess it's just all a matter of personal preference. If it's not quite flashy enough for you and you want a newer generation muscle car, just go out and get a ws6 til the challenger comes out. Whatever you decide to get, maybe you'll have better luck with the next one. And if you do decide to get rid of the goat maybe you could cut me an exceptional deal on it.. hopefully well under trade in since you've had the computer problems? :D

Well Craft, that's exactly my problem. If you are wanting low trade in price for what I've explained that tells me the car is worth less now.

For everyone else, imagine buying a new $30,000+ car and having to push it into a parking lot from a busy road the first time you drive it. Don't try to tell me that wouldn't piss you off and that it isn't a big deal. Like I said, I've owned 2 30+yr vehicles that were 100,000+ miles that never gave me this trouble. I guess, when you buy something brand new you expect something out of them.

I look under the hood of my vehicles, also. I grew up on a farm where I learned to fix many mechanical problems from pickups to tractors so as far as "maturity in cars" I think I am up there. As far as being a salesman of vehicles I think that is bologna. My father worked for GM as a Mr. Goodwrench for several years and he has nothing good to say about them. Salesman are the scum bucket as far as actual automobile knowledge goes. I didn't think I'd have to look under the hood of a brand new car to make sure wires didn't rub against pulleys however, and neither did the 16 other guys that this happened to.

I am very brand loyal and I switche to GM for this car. In other words, GM needed to impress me and they failed. If I have to keep the car, I will most certainly buy the Challenger when it comes back or a new Charger. I would think that a company that royally messes up like this would be willing to give me a deal however. I've paid a month's worth of insurance and payments on a car that I couldn't even sit in.

And as far as comparing this GTO to the old ones. Don't do the whole AM radio or no AC thing. That is dumb. Obviously, newer technology for radios has come out. The fact is that the older cars had more style and better looks all around, this goes for GM, Chrysler or Ford. YES, Pontiac should do a little retro styling. You can do that while still making a wonderful modern car. Ford did it with the Mustang, and I must say that for the first time in my life I'm impressed with Ford for doing so. Yes make the car look tough. The 05 GTO does look fine, Keep in mind I bought one (Mainly because of the image that GTO has in my mind rather than because of the actual look of the car), but they could ad just a few small design things to make it a little sharper. What davis calls a cop magnet, other people call chick magnets.

I've had plenty of people comment on the GTO while I've had it, so it turns a few heads, but it could look more American muscle carish. Once again, I can't help that my initial reaction to the 04 model was disappointment. The 05 looked better, so I got it (mainly because of the legend), but it could get better).

Unless, this is the peak of automobile styling and performand mldavis. In that case, all automobile manufacturers better quit making new cars because there is absolutely no where to go from here, so how dare people like me criticize it.

I wish I did own an old Goat, That would turn many more heads. Come to speak of it I wish I had more old MOPARS which is probably what I should have invested $30,000+ dollars into, since GM people think it's okay to buy a new car that works as well as a horse carriage.

I don't understand his need for a new car either. When I got my 97 Sunfire GT in 1996 it began to have starting troubles. Took it 50 miles to the selling dealer. They found the alternator was faulty with less than 3000 miles on it. They replaced it. About a week later it started having trouble starting again. It was worse this time so I drove it straight to the local dealer. I was beginning to think lemon too. Two hours later I got a call that it was fixed. One of the connections on the starter was loose. They added a lock washer to keep it from coming loose again. The next problem was the alternator going out again, but that was seven years later.

The difference between a used vehicle you buy is if the previous owner was responsible all the parts are in working order and have been test driven by that owner so you should only have to deal with the occasional new break. On a new car you have thousands of parts and while the directly faulty parts are caught there are the occasionally lose nut or damaged component that doesn't fail immediately and that's why cars have warrenties to deal with those issues. Its also why lemon laws require repeated failures of the same part for it to be a lemon. It needs to be an unsolvable problem to be a lemon. GM has worked in good faith with you to fix the car and at this point has probably spent more money fixing it than they made on the car.

You don't have a lemon, you have a car that someone had a moment of inattention on a factory line and if its only happened 16 times in 30,000 cars, well, at .053% that's a **** sides better than death rates for some of the simpler surgeries. Isn't it a bit insane to hold an assembly line worker who received maybe a month of training to an insanely higher perfection rate than a surgeon who had years of training. Yet, they seem to do it.

They fixed it, just because something is new does not mean it will have zero problems. That is why the warranty is there. To me, if it was a wire that was grounding out, the mechanics should of caught that. Suprised it took them bringing in an engineer to fix it. To me it sounds like you are regretting buying a new car and spending all the money. So this problem gives you a chance to complain about it all you want. If you were so loyal of a Mopar guy, you would have bought the Charger. You didn't, so when you can go back to Dodge and enjoy the cr@ppy interior, cheapest build materials and horrible trannies (not to mention the lack of a manual).

Ego. Maturity means you have found other more worthy motivators and pure styling no longer is the main attraction. Form follows function becomes more obvious. Customize your own car if you want to show off to the drive in crowd. Car people who know cars know what you're driving. You can impress the rest with a sardine can with flame paint job, a whale tail spoiler and a fart can. I don't need to put 12" GTO lettering on my car to tell the world what it is. I rather enjoy having questions from only those who know cars.

Some people own defective cars. Many more destroy their cars inadvertently. Look at my list of owned cars below and the mileage on them. I can list the non-routine repairs on the fingers of one hand for all of them together in over half a million miles. Not just GM down there either. Three were on the Saab before GM bought them. That doesn't leave many to fill a hand.

Mistakes are extremely rare in building cars these days. As Bob Lutz said, there are no bad cars being built today. If you get one with a problem, it can be fixed and will be fixed if your car is under warranty. If your dealer can't fix it, call the district rep and ask for an appointment with another dealer. When I was in Liberal KS, we were the "go to guys" for a 200 mile radius for diagnosing and fixing problems. It just takes good mechanics with factory training and tools, and people who really care what they do for a living. You should also never expect a dealer who did not sell you the car to make factory repairs without getting shuffled around his regular customers unless you are out of town on vacation or such.

Yeah, it's embarrassing to have the car die on the road. GM doesn't like it either. Give 'em a chance to make it right.

Well said!!!! I took my car to the dealership for some mod's today. I trust them!...... They did a great job.

Maturity....what the hell do i know about maturity....im 19 years old and love my goat....why do i need to be mature to own this magnificent wonder....i dont know about other "kids" my age but im in love with this car....so i guess you could say im a 45 year old at heart when it comes to cars....

I have to say that I was a bit miffed when I first got my 05 GTO. Two days after we purchased it, the fuel pump went out. Took it back to the dealer where they took two days to fix it. Still, they gave us a rental car and treated us very well the whole time. That was the only problem I have had with the car, except for a stupid nail I got in the right rear tire. Since that time I have dusted more Mustangs and Chargers then I care to think about. Looks, I admit, the Mustang did a great job. The Charger wasn't done up to bad either. Me, I'd rather have the more modern "bland" looks and be able to blow the doors off of just about anything else on the road. :dribble:

The Charger will be an interesting alternative with 425HP, but unless they put a real transmission in it, I won't burn the fuel to go look at one. I still can't like the little gangster slit windows.

When I was in NY a couple of weeks ago, a lot of the pimps were getting Chryslers with huge wheels, spinners and chrome hanging off everywhere. I've never owned a Cadillac, either.

Chrysler doesn't have the market on trouble free cars either. Ever notice that if you see any car or van on the road blowing blue smoke out the tailpipe, chances are 9 in 10 it's a Mopar. I'd love to know why that is. Are they having trouble with valve stem seals, oil control rings, or what? Just curious......I don't know anyone who owns one.

My next door neighbor's son has a 330ci that spends more time in the shop than on the road. He may be tearing it up, but BMWs aren't the answer.

Rest of story

I eventually contacted the Better Business Bureau and that got GM going. They called me a weak later and are letting me trade in the ****py car for a new GTO. So once this happens, I will be happy.

If you people are truly satisfied with brand new cars that die and don't run, than you are way to acceptable of a raw deal. My car didn't have an alternator that was repaired in 2 days. It had a computer system that required over 3 weeks and specialized GTO engineers to reprogram and repair. That is unacceptable in a brand new car. Yes, it may be a rare problem, but that doesn't make it OK to me. To me that means a rare thing should be done to remedy the rary mistake.

I typically have liked Pontiac, and it is the only brand I would own outside of Mopar. However, if Dodge sold me a brand new Charger that I had to push Fred Flinstone style the first time I drove it and then they would make me a better deal after it is unfixed for almost a month, I would be extremely dissappointed. However, my father has had many good dealings with them with trucks and I have had many good dealings with them with Intrepids, although they weren't new cars I guess. If you people like GM, than you shouldn't be defending this ****. You should also be demanding that GM does something to make the situation OK. When you must allow employee pricing because your stocks are plummetting, then you can't be ticking off new customers.

I'm not going to even try and argue about "maturity" for GTOs because I really think that is silly. Pontiac brought back the NAME for a reason. The NAME in this case holds more respect than the car itself. In making the 400hp car they did do well in making the performance right. However, the could have done more with the styling, which if they continue to make the GTO in years to come, I would bet that some of the first things they do is add more to it's cosmetics. (And of course, if they do than mldavis better complain because they are making it to IMMATURE and only high school kids with $35,000 can buy it.)

When looking for a true performance car, people are not usually interested in things such as AC or a great stereo system. (The lastest top of the line Ferrari doesn't even have a radio in it because it is for pure driving.) On the other hand, I've never heard of or seen automobiles with performance and even more so Muscle as an important part of it's style and name, not interested in it looking the part. I don't want the GTO to look like a rice burner. I don't want a screaming 4 cylinder with superchargers on it. I want an 8 cylinder American muscle car. But usually they try to make them look the part. I can't help that my first reaction to the car was DULL. And that when deciding what to buy one of my main issues with GTO (as well as most of the major magazines such as MotorTrend or Car and Driver) was that it is a boring looking car. I don't want to put accesorries on my car Davis that is why I am complaining. If I wanted to do that I would have bought a fricken rice burner.

The car could look tougher. If they make a newer restyled version and even make it more boring, than I will take that back. If they make it more sporty, than mldavis better be mad at GM.

The Charger isn't a 2 door sports car, and it is very heavy. From what I understand the transmissions are starting to come from the Daimler side of things and it is supposed to be a pretty decent one although it isn't a stick. If I had plans on traveling with rear seated passengers more often, I would have bought this car or the SRT-8 version rather than the gTO for obvious reasons.

As for digitalgod. I am not a surgeon, I am a pediatrician so I can't explain all the issues about mistakes in basic surgery. However, I would state that there is a slight difference in operating on a machine that has equally interchangeable manufactured parts vs. a human that may be similar but each have different unique characteristics such as a vessel in an unusual place or blood that clots too easily and goes to the brain for a stroke or the lungs to cause instant death. And maybe that is part of the reason that it takes several years to become a surgeon and a few months to become an assembly line worker.


I like the old 60s and 70s Pontiacs from the Bonnevilles and Grand Prix's to the Tempest, and Le Mans and obviously GTO. I liked the 90s ones. And I am impressed that they decided to bring bach the GTO name. I just feel that they let me down a little in the styling. (Yes, it is a nice car and I appreciate the other nice things like handling and comfort and "mature" **** that I could get in a luxury Buick if that was what I wanted and Blah,blahblah mldavis) I've only had a license for 10yrs, but in So Dak they let us get permits at 14 and I was driving on the old man's farm at 9yo, and in the country you have space to do things with vehicles that you don't get to in the city.

My next car might very well be a late 60s Pontiac or Roadrunner.

"It's truely sad the way things have gone since the Spermans took over. I totally agree with the "Euro-car" statement.

Glad you're enjoying the GTO. Personally, I'd have gone Mustang just on looks alone. Both cars are far better IMO than the NOT-A-CHARGER.

If I had to buy a car tomorrow to replace my Intrepid, it wouldn't be a DC product. They have nothing to offer right now. "

Here's a statement from someone on a Mopar chat site. Yes, it doesn't speak much for Mopar, but I think I've made my own feelings about that well known.

But notice that he would pick the Mustang over the GTO just on looks alone. The man hasn't test drove either one, but when talking about muscle/performance cars. Especially if you are a "fan" of a car or car manufacturer you don't want to here statements like that and defend it just for the sake of defending.

That is true honest non-biased opinion, which is much more important than biased, GM loving no matter what opinion.

By the way, I can go to the Mopar chat lines and here people argue about how great the new Charger is just like people argue about how great the new GTO looks, but there are way more people who are obviously big fans of the Charger that are heavily criticizing it.

And oh yeah, I haven't seen that many specifically mopar vehicles blowing blue smoke on the road. If it is, perhaps it is because they have been driven for so long. My father owned a couple old Plymouth/Dodge pickups that he beat the tar out of and they still run great over 30 yrs later.

The Solstice, now that's a nice lookin car, Notice that they made a roadster look like a roadster. Just like making a Muscle car look like a muscle car.

So how is the driving experience?

I keep hearing moaning and groaning about styling and such but you don't say anything about how you like driving it. DRIVE IT!

It must be nice since you are willing to trade in your "lemon" on a new one. So can we finally drop all this complaining and bellyaching and move on. If you didn't like the driving experience I would think you would want to trade it in on a Mustang. And from listening to your stance it sounds the Mustang would be a better fit. It has all the "looks" you crave for.

If you are this unhappy with the GTO you need to sell it move on and drop the constant negative posts. I'm not drinking the Pontiac Kool-aid either. I've had to go to bat with them a couple of times to get warantee work done. If you think Pontiac or GM is the only company to do that then you are fooling yourself.

My advice, take it or leave it, is DRIVE THE D@MN CAR. If you are still sick of it after a month then change vehicles. I think I can honestly say most of us in this post are getting sick and tired of listening to the constant griping. If it bothers you, YOU FIX IT.

There's an old saying "$hit Happens". It just happened to you unfortunately. Remedy it and move on.
B)

Some people are style conscious, others are gearheads. To pick a car on style alone pegs that one.

On the other hand, some of us are way too old to worry about what the rest of the world thinks of our rides. I did a "Ben Franklin" chart on the January C/D test between the 05 'Stang and the 05 Goat. The Goat wins hands down or ties in every category (except trunk space and shifter) until you get to the FF (Fudge Factor) called "gotta have it" where the only way the 'Stang could win by a single point is to give it 25 to the Goat's 18. Throw out the retro bias and it's a slam dunk for me.

I buy cars for transportation and fun. I could care less what the neighbors think. My boss thought I was nuts 'cause I don't drive a 4-cyl Kia slushbox. We compared EPA fuel mileage of my LS2 with his 4-banger and he couldn't believe it. He beat me on price, though. :P

The car was fixed, why, what??.......Ah, forget it.

when I bought my silver 04 6m last december(huge rebates :D ), it was after a year of deciding between that--waiting for an 05 and a 2001 bmw 540 6m w/13k(my cousins)-very agonizing. After 1 week and continuing to smell slight smell of antifreeze the low coolant light went on. I drove over to Pontiac dealership and a service tech put his hand on the pass,floorboard and it litlerally sank into the dexcool puddle!!!..First new car and I was livid..had to get pontiac customer relations involved b/c they didn't want to replace the carpet and it sill smelled...4 visits later and oevrnighted parts it was driveing again....All the peaople I talked to said the same thing. It's a new car, an assemblage of different parts. Thing s can go wrong. TH at is why there are warranties. I'm still driving it and a member of this forum. Enjoy it!...I hope you the best... :)

Orbit Orange,
Not once have I said anywhere in here that I didn't enjoy driving the car. (Except that I really didn't get much of a chance to drive it.)
It is an awesome car to drive, which is why I am asking for a new one rather than just wanting to get rid of it. This is a car that I plan to keep for good. I don't like that my first brand new car had to be pushed Fred Flinstone style. If you people don't get that, than you sound like the customer relations people on the Pontiac phone line.

The only people that have told me that I should just accept what happened because it had a warranty is the dealership, customer service, and now most people on this post.

Everyone else, from family to friends to coworkers and even the secretary at the dealership I worked at all agreed with what I am thinking.

Like I said in the beginning, I typically go for Dodge. I went to the GTO because I am impressed with Pontiac for bringing back the muscle car, and because the Charger wasn't a true sports car that I was looking for. If your answer to me is tough, live with it and just quit whining and move on, or so you were one of the few unlucky ones, to bad get over it. Than I must say up yours and never buy a GM again. Fortunately, you people don't work for GM or the dealership.

After going through the BBB, things got done and I am not going to get a '06 GTO which does rectify the situation. I am happy now. SEE I did something about it.

I don't know who got the idea that I would rather have a Mustang. I've said many times that I do not like Ford at all. I just respect how they retro-styled the new ones, but yet kept it modern.

mldavis, I don't know what to say. I would definitely consider myself a gearhead. I would rather drive a rusty piece of junk that kicks butt on the drag strip than a fancy looking dog of a car. However, when it comes to GTO and MUSCLE CARS, I expect a certain something. I read literature on muscle cars as a hobby, I own a 70 Barracuda, and would own more if I could afford it. It is possible to be concerned with the look of a car AND what's under the hood.

I don't need a car to look flashy or more importantly GOOD to impress the neighbors. It is for ME. I like to look at a fine looking car. The '05 GTO is a decent looking non-distinct car. My girlfriend has a very nice looking '00 Grand Am that doesn't look much different. A '69 GTO is a GREAT looking car. The '05 Mustang is not flashy, it just looks great.
Maybe what I'm looking for is more of DISTINCTION than necessarily flashiness.

C/D has a retro bias because styles in the 60s and early 70s looked good. Styles in the 80s-90s are boring and the same. Being modern does not mean better looking.

Finally, I bought the damm car!!!!!! That proves that I like it. It is great to drive. I will just be happier once I'm driving mine. I also just feel that the designers need to add a little more style, which I'm sure they will in future models assuming it lasts.
I plan to keep the car a long time and take good care of it. That's what i do. I love my cars. But I've never owned anything newer than 7 yrs old, and I've never had a problem like this.

mldavis, If they do restyle the GTO in a few years and make it flashier and add more power, you'd better be on this board complaining that it looks to flashy and not boring enough (oh, I mean mature enough).

I never thought I'd ever hear someone talk about a Pontiac GTO as mature.

If you look at the line of cars I've owned (below), you'll see that the "F" body is the only one that could even remotely be called "flashy". I did some style mods on the 70 GTX to hide the logo, engine badges and dual exhaust. I ordered the TransAm from the spec sheet and insisted that the whale-tail spoiler be deleted -- probably the only one in existence w/o that monster.

I can promise you that if Pontiac goes juvenile on me and puts another screaming chicken on the hood of the next GTO, I'll go BMW. I don't wear my baseball cap backwards, either.

Not once have I said anywhere in here that I didn't enjoy driving the car. (Except that I really didn't get much of a chance to drive it.)
It is an awesome car to drive, which is why I am asking for a new one rather than just wanting to get rid of it. This is a car that I plan to keep for good.

Good, I heard the answer I was hoping to hear. With every mile your ordeal will seem less and less important. Sure it's a b!tch going through it but it happens.

I may be coming off tough and hard headed but I wanted to see what your stance was. I think I see it more clearly now.

Being your first new car, don't give into the notion of a new car not having any problems. They do. With the advent of MORE and MORE electronics and safety this and airbag that, ALL newer cars have a greater chance of something going bad from the factory. They are FAR more complicated than the muscle machines of yore. It's apples and oranges. Sure an old Chevelle or Challenger is easier to wrench on or keep running. But do they have computers that control thousands of functions? Are they concerned with emissions? Do they have sensors that in the event of a crash will try to minimize occupant harm? Today's machines are VASTLY more complicated. Sure and older GTO can be kept in working order easier (if you know what you're doing), BUT will that GTO play your favorite CD's, will it figure your gas mileage, will it pull throttle if you spin your tires in the snow?

With more safety features and electronics will come more problems. And the "older" ones had it too. Just ask mldavis, he can clue you in, he is one of our "old-timers" and is a master technician.

So keep on driving and this will soon be in your rear view. When you waste that first Rustang GT or wax that Nissan 350Z driver, you'll be glad you're driving the GTO and it's "bland" styling won't seem too important when the other wannabe "musclecars" are lying in your wake. :)

Maybe what I'm looking for is more of DISTINCTION than necessarily flashiness.

Sorry forgot to comment on this one.

I agree. I think the GTO should look a little more distinct too. Not boy-racerish. But when you use that word distinct it has a hint of the word "maturity" in it. And that is what mldavis is getting at.

If Pontiac builds a huge winged, 50 scooped, body-cladded, rolling caricature, then mldavis as well as myself are going to be turned OFF. Sure it will turn on the 16-19 year olds, but then again how many 16-19 year olds have 33-35K to burn? Answer: NOT MANY

So I agree with your distinction comment wholeheartedly. I just don't want that distinction to turn into Firebird Trans Am part 2.

And historically, as GTO aged from 64-74, the buyers of the car got "older" and more "mature". Because by 1970 the GTO was a more mature car for slightly older buyers. (Read late 20 somethings to early 40 somethings, not teens and young 20 somethings). By 1970 the GTO was loaded with "mature" options. If you wanted a stripped down muscle machine that was less mature you opted for a Trans AM, Roadrunner, or a smallblock Challenger, Nova or even a Tempest GT-37. GTO never was just for the kids. Prices for the Judge were VERY high for the time. Insurance was out the roof. Not too many teens could afford it.

I wish Pontiac would bring back the TA for this crowd. Then we could have a more "distinct" GTO like it is now but without all the complaints of it's high price and plain looks.

OK I've rambled enough. Just wanted to say I agree with you on the distinction line. :)

I'm not going to argue with you Orbit Orange. I think we're basically on the same side, however ...

Your avatar displays a '70 Judge. This car was one of the most outragious cars produced by GM at the time. That huge rear spoiler was off the chart. The Orbit Orange paint with the multi-color stripes! Even the "Judge" name playing off the Laugh-in bit. If they tried to make a more immature vehicle (the kind meant to make teenage boys drool) I don't know how they could.

But don't misunderstand my comments. I lust after the '70 Judge more than just about any other GTO. (My favorite is the '67, but just because that's what my mom used to drive.)

I don't want the GTO to turn into a WRX, with huge rice spoilers and scoops and over the top styling. That's the last thing I want. (Although I do think the current one is more than just reserved - it's nearly invisible.)

Steve

salbracht, I understand your point

I'd LOVE to have the car in my avatar. The thing is it wouldn't be my daily driver. It would be a toy, a plaything. I'd drive it on weekends, to cruises, etc. I'd love to have it as a compliment to my '04. But it would be a toy not a daily driver.

Also it was an option too. All 70 GTO's were not outrageous like The Judge, only a few were. If you wanted a more "plain" GTO it could be had. I actually wouldn't also mind if there was a festooned option GTO that was overdone. That way it would satisfy the crowd who wants the "over the top" styling and you could still get a powerful base model that was more "refined looking" (for a lack of a better word).

I'm really hoping for a redesigned GTO for '08. I'm not sure it's going to happen, but I hope it does. As for styling sure I'd love it to be spiced up. But as you say I don't want a ridiculous looking Hot Wheels car, unless that was an option for some and you could still have a base model too.

Yikes, sorry to hijack, back to the topic I guess. :D

a week old thread

someone please put this guy out of his misery and buy the Goat from him. Go to Mopar....no one will miss you. Be sure to take a nice, close look at my tailights!

Yes, drowssap please do put me out of my misery. I bought a GTO with the intentions of join in with the Pontiac crowd. My first car was a 20yr old 77 Grand Prix and I loved it. But I got a car that didn't run. So yes, why don't you buy the car for me. Are you sure you won't miss me, we all go to know each other so well? And if you buy my GTO than you will be seeing the taillights of lawn mowers because it didn't run at all. Thus, my complaint.

Orbit Orange, I think you are on the same wavelength as myself. I am more of a fan of the old muscle cars and even older than 50s cars myself. I really don't like many new cars. Although, they're starting to make some good ones at the moment. I personally, think the 70 Plymouth GTX that mldavis owns would be what I'm talking about. That car is not flashy, but is very tough looking and distinct. When I see a GTX I know it is something different and distinct. When I see a GTO I have to look very closely at the grill to see, Oh yeah that's a GTO it has a lot of power and is fast as hell. Otherwise, I might be fooled that it is a Grand Prix or Grand Am at first glance.

Well, I'm really frustrated. GM allowed me to trade the car in, but now the dealership is saying at the last second that they won't let me and the GM guy doesn't know what's going on. They gave me this good deal and seem to be retracting it now, which makes me even more upset than before.

I am really wanting to enjoy owning a GTO. It is one of my dream cars, beside the Roadrunner, Viper, or Charger. Unfortunately, I picked the wrong one and noone cars.

Sorry, Orbit orange, but this just doesn't happen. And if it does than I'm not just going to accept it. I probably will not ever buy a new car again. I think I will stick to old collector cars.

Computer stuff doesn't mean that much to me. It is kind of cool, but I can calculate my own MPG with simple arithmetic at the gas pump. And if I really start to worry about emissions I will buy a hybrid car, or one that doesn't burn gasoline at all if they make such a thing.

When i buy a "muscle car" the comfort features aren't that important. And that's what made the muscle cars what they were. A powerful car with no fancy features.
Except the looked distinctive and sharp. Not all looked flashy..

Would the Plymouth Prowler be considered Mature or high schoolish? Personally I think it is extremely mature and cool and expensive.

Plus I don't think I wear my cap backwards either, but I don't know what that has to do with fast, powerful cars anyhow.
PS. Does anyone know if you can buy car grill guards like the General Lee had on the Dukes of Hazzard?

Originally posted by unclejesse@Oct 23 2005, 08:56 PM
Yes, drowssap please do put me out of my misery. I bought a GTO with the intentions of join in with the Pontiac crowd. My first car was a 20yr old 77 Grand Prix and I loved it. But I got a car that didn't run. So yes, why don't you buy the car for me. Are you sure you won't miss me, we all go to know each other so well? And if you buy my GTO than you will be seeing the taillights of lawn mowers because it didn't run at all. Thus, my complaint.
want to know my problem? My problem is with people like you. You like the old GTO's? Fine. THIS IS NOT AN OLD GTO!!! Thus the web site New Age GTO. Did you even see the new age part? I can't stand the old timers who don't like this car because it doesn't look like the old GTO. Sorry, I don't care for retro...that's why I bought mine!

Second, other people read posts like yours, draw their conclusions that this is a lemon. Buy 100 electronic items, guaranteed you will have a few that won't work. It's not perfect, never will be. In reality, the web should not be a place to post your complaints, there isn't enough accurate information. GO TO YOUR DEALER! That is the place you should be crying to. That's what I would do if I was in your shoes.

To the moderators: I suggest this should be closed. There isn't going to be much good coming from this thread, from either myself or this guy.

I'm watching it.

Originally posted by Nocturn@Oct 24 2005, 12:21 PM
I'm watching it.
Thank you. Good moderators here. :D

Well, drowssap.

I purchased the GTO because I was impressed that Pontiac came out with it. I liked it. Thus I PAID FOR IT. I'm not someone who is just complaining about the car. I am complaining because I really feel I got jerked around paying that much for a new car.

If Pontiac didn't care about retro, if you didn't care about retro, the GTO name would not have come back. It would be called G8 or something. They're trying to capture that "retro" name.

I have complained to the dealers who have jerked me around in more ways than I care to mention at this point. They and GM had recently agreed to remedy the situation but at the last point the dealer pulled the rug out from me so I am now at square one.

I have been commentating on how I feel about the styliing because it is my opinion and apparently the opinion of many (Thus the poor sales of the '04 model, and the less than enthusiastic response about the styling that I get from almost anyone I know that talks about cars. Although the performance part is always thought of as top notch)

If I were a lifetime huge Pontiac fan, and someone told me what I have been saying, I would not tell him to quit whining and just take whatever **** happens because this is GM and nothing can be wrong. I would say you did get wronged, unfortunately and GM should right that wrong. Yes, this is a great car, but what happened to you was not right especially for 35 grand and being your first car and jumping brands for the first time.

I'm going to mention this discussion on a Mopar sight and see what happens. I'm going to say the same thing as if it happened to a new Charger and complain about the styling. Plus I'm going to say what was said here.

Once again, I like the new GTO. I just feel the styling could be a little more GTOish (THUS THE RETRO NAMING OF THE VEHICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) But it is still a cool car that I've been waiting for for a long time. Plus, mine didn't work. If it did, I would be here talking about what new stuff I was going to buy for it or do with it.

well in that same argument is the Grandprix anything like the original? What about the Corvette, what makes it retro?

There are GTO cues in the car that I believe warrent the name...agressive styling is not a GTO trait.

Neither the Grand Prix nor the Corvette were stopped in production over 20 yrs ago. The Grand Prix is not really a muscle car nor has it ever been. The corvette still looks very nice. They won't tame down the Corvette because that would be dumb.

Everyone has talked me into it. I'm not buying a new car from GM again. I had no idea this was the GM mentality.

Way to sell your brand to a new customer.

Everyone has talked me into it. I'm not buying a new car from GM again.

I buy what I want to drive. I don't much care who makes it, although I am still enough of a U.S. patriot that I don't want to buy imports when I can find a suitable car from a U.S. manufacturer.

I stick with G.M. up to now because I worked on them for many years (along with BMW and Subaru) and I know what makes them tick. It bothers me somewhat that the current GTO is an Australian made body with U.S. power, but there isn't much else out there. The Vette is way more expensive and a mandatory 2-seater. The 'Stang is a "kids" car in my old eyes, and while "retro" is "in", I don't like it. Maybe the younger generation sees old as "new" but I've been there and got tired of it.

But style is at the bottom of my list. I do like the unassuming stealth of the new Goat. I don't buy cars to show off to the neighbors, I buy them to drive and enjoy in my own private little world in the ****pit.

I may have some strange tastes for someone my age, but I sure don't let a group of forum jockeys (no offense, guys) influence me to buy or not to buy a given car based on opinions. I drive 'em and buy 'em if I like 'em and can afford 'em. Like Lutz said in a recent interview, there are no "bad" cars being built today. If G.M. can't build what I want to drive, I'll go elsewhere. Right now, I'm happy as a clam.

mldavis. I think i have a new found respect for you. I don't understand your opinion as far as styling goes. Personally, I find extremely odd that you covered/got rid of the engine size emblems and what not on your GTX. Sorry, but that is strange. I think the GTX is an extremely nice looking car (and muscle looking, more so than the current GTO), but those emblems, to me, are just part of the car. I like things to stay new, so I guess I would like to preserve the way a car looked as much as possible and appreciate added on parts such as spoilers. While the spoiler may not do much performance wise at regular speeds (I think, I just assume that I don't actually know how fast you have to go for a spoiler to make a difference) but the spoiler is performance intended.

I like to just drive as well, but I guess I see cars as somewhat of an art?? The way they look is part of that. Obviously performance is more important, but styling is extremely important unless we're talking about an old beater that is meant for off-roading.


I would think an old timer would appreciate the old looks, but I guess not. I do and I'm 26. I love the old car looks. Even the old 40s-50s styling with the wings, and not just muscle cars.

My father also worked for GM as a mechanic for several years before he quit to farm. He has some interesting stories. None of which are favorable towards salesmen.

He has one story of a guy buying a 70 something Catalina I believe. But the car came from the factory with a small hole (defect) in the block and obviously didn't last to long. Rather than just switching out the entire engine, GM made them only replace the block which took much more time and probably money. (My dad thinks its because they didn't want to have to say they actually replaced an engine on a brand new car.) Then later, one of the Regional managers or some big GM guy came to the shop and found the old defective block and hit it with a sledge hammer until it cracked. I guess, he didn't want anyone else using this block for their own purposes, even though it didn't work anyway. My father wasn't real impressed with that.


Well, I'm still not happy that this all happened. I was very happy with the car when I first got it. I have some criticism of the styling is all, but I do like it. It just makes me angry that it didn't work for a month after buying a new car.

Originally posted by unclejesse@Oct 25 2005, 03:12 PM
Neither the Grand Prix nor the Corvette were stopped in production over 20 yrs ago. The Grand Prix is not really a muscle car nor has it ever been. The corvette still looks very nice. They won't tame down the Corvette because that would be dumb.
The point of naming it the GTO, was in fact that Lutz believed this is what the car would be if it wasn't stopped in production...

people can complain all they want about the styling but guess what? The style is what brought me to the car in the first place. I'm not loyal to any brand, I'm loyal to what I drive. My last few cars have been a Mazda 3, Nissan Xterra, SHO Taurus...and I loved them all! They all served a purpose.

I don't like people talking **** about a car on the forum that the car was from. It's pointless, unless you want to stir up something. I see all the time an M3 owner, or a Stang owner coming to the boards talking ****. Why? Are they THAT bored? I don't own an M3, so I won't be in an M3 forum.

My point (if I have one) is that people tend to concentrate on the bad. Talk bad about something to 2 people, and watch how far it goes. You come here and say how good the car is, and no one pays attention. I should not put a number on this...it's a bad thing to do...but 98% of GTO owners LOVE their car. All it takes is 1 bad apple to stir it up, and all of a sudden, everyone thinks the car is a lemon. It's unfair, and not accurate. Like I said before, you have a beef, GO TO THE DEALER! If you are not getting satisfaction, go to another, or talk to a manager. Posting will not get your car fixed.

P.S. retro=dumb. A few hits...a whole lot of misses!

Originally posted by Nocturn+Oct 26 2005, 11:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nocturn @ Oct 26 2005, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-unclejesse@Oct 25 2005, 03:12 PM
Neither the Grand Prix nor the Corvette were stopped in production over 20 yrs ago. The Grand Prix is not really a muscle car nor has it ever been. The corvette still looks very nice. They won't tame down the Corvette because that would be dumb.
The point of naming it the GTO, was in fact that Lutz believed this is what the car would be if it wasn't stopped in production... [/b][/quote]
Good point. One that's not brought up often enough. I don't have a problem with someone not liking the styling of my 2004 GTO. I understand. In fact when I first bought my car and would tell others about it, I'd tell them they'd probably walk right past without a second glance.

Anyway, I find most people speak of the infamous 1970 GTO as a point of reference. Fair enough. But does anyone remember what the 1974 GTO looked like? Check it out. In my opinion, had the GTO continued as a model, we'd likely have seen a GTO trim package on the Grand Am!

Originally posted by BRMike@Oct 26 2005, 07:40 PM
Good point. One that's not brought up often enough. I don't have a problem with someone not liking the styling of my 2004 GTO. I understand. In fact when I first bought my car and would tell others about it, I'd tell them they'd probably walk right past without a second glance.

Anyway, I find most people speak of the infamous 1970 GTO as a point of reference. Fair enough. But does anyone remember what the 1974 GTO looked like? Check it out. In my opinion, had the GTO continued as a model, we'd likely have seen a GTO trim package on the Grand Am!
wow...it does look like the '04 slightly :o

Originally posted by drowssap@Oct 26 2005, 12:28 PM
people can complain all they want about the styling but guess what? The style is what brought me to the car in the first place. I'm not loyal to any brand, I'm loyal to what I drive. My last few cars have been a Mazda 3, Nissan Xterra, SHO Taurus...and I loved them all! They all served a purpose.

I don't like people talking **** about a car on the forum that the car was from. It's pointless, unless you want to stir up something. I see all the time an M3 owner, or a Stang owner coming to the boards talking ****. Why? Are they THAT bored? I don't own an M3, so I won't be in an M3 forum.

My point (if I have one) is that people tend to concentrate on the bad. Talk bad about something to 2 people, and watch how far it goes. You come here and say how good the car is, and no one pays attention. I should not put a number on this...it's a bad thing to do...but 98% of GTO owners LOVE their car. All it takes is 1 bad apple to stir it up, and all of a sudden, everyone thinks the car is a lemon. It's unfair, and not accurate. Like I said before, you have a beef, GO TO THE DEALER! If you are not getting satisfaction, go to another, or talk to a manager. Posting will not get your car fixed.

P.S. retro=dumb. A few hits...a whole lot of misses!
This is where I'll have to disagree with you. No disrespect intended, but what would be the point of having a website if all you could do was talk only about the good aspects of a car? People that know anything at all about cars won't let one person make them believe that a particular brand of cars are all lemons.. NO car is ever going to be perfect, but part of the buying process is weighing out the pros with the cons and making an informed decision. The "informed" part comes from not only people you know & whoever you buy it from, but also from sites like these where you can actually talk to the people who have already owned them and have experience with the car both good and bad. I believe that this guy has a right to be pissed off, although I do think this thread has just kept repeating itself over and over again which is pretty pointless. Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Croft316@Oct 27 2005, 11:56 AM
This is where I'll have to disagree with you. No disrespect intended, but what would be the point of having a website if all you could do was talk only about the good aspects of a car? People that know anything at all about cars won't let one person make them believe that a particular brand of cars are all lemons.. NO car is ever going to be perfect, but part of the buying process is weighing out the pros with the cons and making an informed decision. The "informed" part comes from not only people you know & whoever you buy it from, but also from sites like these where you can actually talk to the people who have already owned them and have experience with the car both good and bad. I believe that this guy has a right to be pissed off, although I do think this thread has just kept repeating itself over and over again which is pretty pointless. Just my 2 cents.
I can agree with you on your points. The problem was he complained about 1 car, and then all of a sudden, all of GM is at fault. I just read an article from JD Power saying that US cars are second in quality behind Japanese cars, but no one would know due to guys like this who villianize all of American cars because he's had a bad experience. The really funny part is the car's from Australia. :D but that's not here nor there.

You can say "hey I have a problem with a door", or whatever and if he's having an issue with a dealership, OK, there are plenty of people to help. When you cry and complain about it, without offering anything, is pointless. Then of all things, he starts attacking everyone who posted anything. MlDavis offers what might be the most help from anybody on this forum, yet he attacks HIM. Crazy. It seems like this guy did not want help, he wanted an audience.

I have repect for your .02, so not a problem here.

Originally posted by drowssap+Oct 27 2005, 12:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (drowssap @ Oct 27 2005, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Croft316@Oct 27 2005, 11:56 AM
This is where I'll have to disagree with you. No disrespect intended, but what would be the point of having a website if all you could do was talk only about the good aspects of a car? People that know anything at all about cars won't let one person make them believe that a particular brand of cars are all lemons.. NO car is ever going to be perfect, but part of the buying process is weighing out the pros with the cons and making an informed decision. The "informed" part comes from not only people you know & whoever you buy it from, but also from sites like these where you can actually talk to the people who have already owned them and have experience with the car both good and bad. I believe that this guy has a right to be pissed off, although I do think this thread has just kept repeating itself over and over again which is pretty pointless. Just my 2 cents.
I can agree with you on your points. The problem was he complained about 1 car, and then all of a sudden, all of GM is at fault. I just read an article from JD Power saying that US cars are second in quality behind Japanese cars, but no one would know due to guys like this who villianize all of American cars because he's had a bad experience. The really funny part is the car's from Australia. :D but that's not here nor there.

You can say "hey I have a problem with a door", or whatever and if he's having an issue with a dealership, OK, there are plenty of people to help. When you cry and complain about it, without offering anything, is pointless. Then of all things, he starts attacking everyone who posted anything. MlDavis offers what might be the most help from anybody on this forum, yet he attacks HIM. Crazy. It seems like this guy did not want help, he wanted an audience.

I have repect for your .02, so not a problem here. [/b][/quote]
Yeah I can definitely see where you're coming from as well.. hence the "repeating itself" part :D But honestly, as far as customer service goes, I don't know about you guys but I've never had any luck with it as far as large companies go. From Verizon (which screwed me over royally a FEW different times), to AOL and companies of that nature, it's almost impossible to get through to someone quickly and efficiently who actually WANT to help you. It's just the way it is I guess :angry:

As an ex-service manager, I can tell you that, way back in the late 80s, the individual dealer service manager had a lot of discretion in handling warranty repairs. Older, established SMs had the respect of the field service managers for Olds, Buick and Chevy and could overwrite the line item repair codes with a special access authorization code to perform repairs that didn't fit established guidelines.

What that means, absent any rule changes in the interim, is that the level of service depends on the individual dealer's reputation with the factory, the skill and training of his mechanics, and his service manager's reputation.

I've mentioned elsewhere that my dealership in Liberal Kansas was a go-to dealership for the entire area. What other dealers didn't want to fix, were unable to fix, or didn't sell and didn't have time to fix, left our shop as good as new. I honestly cannot remember any vehicle that wasn't repaired to a customer's satisfaction. Yeah, there were some that ate our lunch and took more than a day to diagnose and repair (I'll tell you about a BMW some time), but we took pride in our reputation and took steps to maintain that.

IOW, blame the dealer, not the factory. As Lutz said .............

Originally posted by mldavis@Oct 28 2005, 06:28 AM
As an ex-service manager, I can tell you that, way back in the late 80s, the individual dealer service manager had a lot of discretion in handling warranty repairs. Older, established SMs had the respect of the field service managers for Olds, Buick and Chevy and could overwrite the line item repair codes with a special access authorization code to perform repairs that didn't fit established guidelines.

What that means, absent any rule changes in the interim, is that the level of service depends on the individual dealer's reputation with the factory, the skill and training of his mechanics, and his service manager's reputation.

I've mentioned elsewhere that my dealership in Liberal Kansas was a go-to dealership for the entire area. What other dealers didn't want to fix, were unable to fix, or didn't sell and didn't have time to fix, left our shop as good as new. I honestly cannot remember any vehicle that wasn't repaired to a customer's satisfaction. Yeah, there were some that ate our lunch and took more than a day to diagnose and repair (I'll tell you about a BMW some time), but we took pride in our reputation and took steps to maintain that.

IOW, blame the dealer, not the factory. As Lutz said .............
amen.

Also heres a little thought on the matter of styling . The original 64 gto didnt look all that awe insiring at the time either (as a matter of fact it was just a repackaged lemans/tempest) but people wanted it for its performance .Once they had driven it and others saw what it could do then the car became popular and the body style was accepted.
Did people really think they were going to remake the 68-72 body . Its a new era and time for the new gto. I get more compliments on my 05 than any car ive ever owned except my 68 442 convertible . however if there was one on every corner (ie mustang) no one would say a word . enough of the make a retro looking one.
As for me i hate the look of the new rustang (except in my rear view). I agree that if the gto nameplate had lived on it would have been accepted in any version but the 70s came and killed the true performance muscle car.corvettes were getting spanked by pick ups and broncos. only the mustang managed to survive on through but they were just a shell of themselves in the late 70s early 80s .hell they had 4 cyclinders in many of them. they survived and never did we hear they are so bland (and they were)why dont they go back to the 60s look .
Bottom line I love the look .I didnt even test drive the gto I bought it because I fit inside it (6'4" tall sometimes i love the car but just cant get comfortable)and i loved the sleeper look. I didnt want a "hey mr. officer look at me car". I wanted a mature performance/muscle car. I dont need every swingin **** with a hoped up ricer testing me at all the stoplights.remember I cant be the only one who likes a sleeper the gran national and the mid 90s impala ss(caprice classic) are a testament to that.

you just named 2 of my favs. The Impala SS and the best of them all, GN

Also heres a little thought on the matter of styling . The original 64 gto didnt look all that awe insiring at the time either (as a matter of fact it was just a repackaged lemans/tempest) but people wanted it for its performance .Once they had driven it and others saw what it could do then the car became popular and the body style was accepted.
Did people really think they were going to remake the 68-72 body . Its a new era and time for the new gto. I get more compliments on my 05 than any car ive ever owned except my 68 442 convertible . however if there was one on every corner (ie mustang) no one would say a word . enough of the make a retro looking one.
As for me i hate the look of the new rustang (except in my rear view). I agree that if the gto nameplate had lived on it would have been accepted in any version but the 70s came and killed the true performance muscle car.corvettes were getting spanked by pick ups and broncos. only the mustang managed to survive on through but they were just a shell of themselves in the late 70s early 80s .hell they had 4 cyclinders in many of them. they survived and never did we hear they are so bland (and they were)why dont they go back to the 60s look .
Bottom line I love the look .I didnt even test drive the gto I bought it because I fit inside it (6'4" tall sometimes i love the car but just cant get comfortable)and i loved the sleeper look. I didnt want a "hey mr. officer look at me car". I wanted a mature performance/muscle car. I dont need every swingin **** with a hoped up ricer testing me at all the stoplights.remember I cant be the only one who likes a sleeper the gran national and the mid 90s impala ss(caprice classic) are a testament to that.

Thats a great point i think that everyone here that owns a GTO either likes a sleeper or just likes a car that for under 35K can get 400 ponies (or goats in this case) a great interior and enjoy their days beating down Mustangs, Chargers, etc, etc, etc. I myself love a sleeper and think that the GTO looks fine now, I do believe that the hood scoops are a necessary part but hey im 19 thats to be expected right? In no way are we accepting what happened to you and you are right not to either BUT most unfortunately it does happen from time to time no matter which brand it is. Now should it be corrected? Hell yea i believe THAT dealer has done you a wrong and it should be corrected by THAT dealer. In my eyes your car should be replaced right away if they can't seem to fix/figure out the problem. But you also shouldn't blame the entire GM corporation for a mishap with ONE dealer. Once again in no way is this situation right and maybe you need to let someone higher up in the chain know about it...

Anyway, I find most people speak of the infamous 1970 GTO as a point of reference. Fair enough. But does anyone remember what the 1974 GTO looked like? Check it out. In my opinion, had the GTO continued as a model, we'd likely have seen a GTO trim package on the Grand Am!
I agree completely! I realize that the GTO ran from 1964 to 1974, but I tend to believe that the last year the GTO deserved to wear the badge was 1972. That is until 2004. I did not care for the fact that the hood scoops were not present on the 2004 model and am glad that I waited for 2005 beacuse of the 50 additional ponies.

In terms of styling, I have not seen much mention of the 18" wheel option, which does wonders for the profile, or the sports appearance package (SAP) available. I personally have mixed feeling regarding the SAP. I do not believe the extra $$$ are worth it. I love the way my car looks and have had nothing but compliments...and a lot of drooling.

Even though I am at < 300 miles, I suspect that I will continue to enjoy the newest member of my family. BTW: I think the wife is jealous. :D

i love the way the front facia is on the sport apperance package, but i dont care for the rest (esp the rear bumper), and i dont believe they sell it seperatly. but then again, it took the guy forever to find the SAP anyways, so they might.

i love the way the front facia is on the sport apperance package, but i dont care for the rest (esp the rear bumper), and i dont believe they sell it seperatly. but then again, it took the guy forever to find the SAP anyways, so they might.

How does this option work? Does one simply visit their nearest Pontiac dealership and have the SAP ordered? What is the cost? I thought that I had read somewhere that we are talking $3000+.

-K

How does this option work? Does one simply visit their nearest Pontiac dealership and have the SAP ordered? What is the cost? I thought that I had read somewhere that we are talking $3000+.

-K

yea, when i was getting mine serviced, i asked the guy at the parts counter to look it up. it was a $2200 option, and i believe that is just primered, and it came with the magnaflow exhaust. i thought when i checked into it a while ago, you could get it already painted in the black, red, and silver colors, i just dont remember the price

The dealer cost is $1,600.00 on the SAP. Work it from there. I think the SAP adds a great deal to the looks of the goat.