MSRP- $32,495 for automatic, $695 extra for 6-speed. Fuel economy- 17/29 with manual, 16/21 with automatic. VIA GM press release 11/3/03.

21 mpg highway for the auto? I hardly think so :unsure:

Originally posted by scottknight@Nov 4 2003, 05:20 AM
21 mpg highway for the auto? I hardly think so :unsure:
Especially considering the same release gives the auto composite as 21.5. I'm thinking there is no way to get 16 and 21 to a 21.5 composite - but maybe it's new government math...

HOLY GAS GUZZLER BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!

It now appears the 21mpg highway is NOT a mistake. You can estimate the composite mpg for the gas guzzler tax with this formula:

(1/(.495/city MPG + .351/highway MPG))+.15

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml

You can look up the GTO on the www.fueleconomy.gov website and see that the 16/21 rating for the auto is correct if not a bit shocking. I guess the GTO really needs a 5-speed auto.....

Holy Deja Vu!!!

Using 16 MPG city and 21 MPG highway would be 21.13 and a tax of $1,300 so you were correct in that the 21 is in error. Of course you can get a $1000 tax if it is 17 MPG city and 21 MPG highway (= 21.97). So one of those numbers has to be wrong. I find it amazing...well maybe not...that the government can come up with a formula that calculates an average number that is greater then the highway number??!!??

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

Sorry Tails, but the mpg numbers in GM press release are correct.

You can look up the GTO on the www.fueleconomy.gov website and see that the 16/21 rating for the auto is correct if not a bit shocking. I guess the GTO really needs a 5speed auto.....

I got the final Price from my Dealer for my car. It will be 33,495. Yes that does include the gaz guzzler tax. It also includes the destination and freight charges of $700.

With tax, tags and paper work fees the total is 34,587. It is better than I was thinking....

NOW I WANT MINE!!!!!!!!!! :woot:

Originally posted by Davbo@Nov 4 2003, 02:44 PM
Sorry Tails, but the mpg numbers in GM press release are correct.

You can look up the GTO on the www.fueleconomy.gov website and see that the 16/21 rating for the auto is correct if not a bit shocking. I guess the GTO really needs a 5speed auto.....
I am getting dizzy. Do we have theis discussion anywhere else? :D

I believe you however running the numbers it still doesn't add up. Using their published formula gives 21.13 but they say 21.5. Maybe they are rounding off the numbers?? In any event it is still weird how the formula gives a number greater than 21 MPG. I am certainly not arguing that the tax should be higher. I am arguing that the whole gas guzzler tax is stupid, wrong and inconsistent. BTW I can't get to the car information at that website this morning.


:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

Someone who knows who to contact with the EPA and/or GM needs to let them know there looks like there is a mistake with the 2004 GTO mileage numbers on the EPA web site and GM media release.

(MAYBE both A4 & M6 NUMBER SETS ARE INCORRECT)


ALL I'M SAYING IS LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE Highway mpg NUMBERS


Come on - [Highway 8 mpg] difference between the A4 and M6 - -

1. (0.7 {A4} versus 0.57 {M6} ) "high gear ratio" for 3.46 rear end

2. Holden CV8 (Generation III V8 302 HP) mileage results show the following:

"The Monaro CV8 returns 8.0 litres/100km { 29.4 mpg } on the highway cycle and 13.0 litres/100km { 18.1 mpg } on the city cycle for the automatic, and 7.4 litres/100km { 31.79 mpg } on the highway cycle and 13.0 litres/100km ( 18.1 mpg ) on the city cycle for the manual."
<<http://www.aushomepage.com.au/Article/637/>>

Thanks for listening -

I can't argue this anymore. Just go to the website and look up the 2004 GTO for yourself and you will see that the numbers are correct.

Click on the FAQ's section and you can read all about the gas guzzler tax and the formula I cut and pasted. They state that the formula is an estimate and it maybe off by one tax bracket.

Okay you win. My engineering genes are totally affronted however.

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

Originally posted by GTO_Again@Nov 4 2003, 02:59 PM
Someone who knows who to contact with the EPA and/or GM needs to let them know there looks like there is a mistake with the 2004 GTO mileage numbers on the EPA web site and GM media release.

(MAYBE both A4 & M6 NUMBER SETS ARE INCORRECT)


ALL I'M SAYING IS LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE Highway mpg NUMBERS


Come on - [Highway 8 mpg] difference between the A4 and M6 - -

1. (0.7 {A4} versus 0.57 {M6} ) "high gear ratio" for 3.46 rear end

2. Holden CV8 (Generation III V8 302 HP) mileage results show the following:

"The Monaro CV8 returns 8.0 litres/100km { 29.4 mpg } on the highway cycle and 13.0 litres/100km { 18.1 mpg } on the city cycle for the automatic, and 7.4 litres/100km { 31.79 mpg } on the highway cycle and 13.0 litres/100km ( 18.1 mpg ) on the city cycle for the manual."
<<http://www.aushomepage.com.au/Article/637/>>

Thanks for listening -
the final drive ratio (diff) on the CV8 auto is 3.08 , and on the manual is 3.46..

the gto is 3.46 auto and manual.

3.46 diff on an auto would be similar to running 3.7 or 3.9 on a 6-speed.

i hear its also been adjusted for more aggressive shift points.

Dave,

The mileage as listed in the press release is correct, as well as the gas
guzzler tax. The federal government has set a 22.5 mpg composite mileage
figure as the threshold for the tax, which in this case is $1,000. The
final price of the vehicle, including the federal tax is $33,495.

Sincerely,

Jim Hopson
Pontiac-GMC Communication

I love the $32,495 price! Add that $1000 guzzler tax and now it's $33,495, still OK. It just burns my @$$ that we have to pay a "guzzler" tax on a car that blows away truck mpg's that don't pay the tax. What a load of bull$#%&!!

People who get the M6 will get 29 mpg on the highway and this is a guzzler??? :huh:

CAFE tax laws on cars are a load of crap and need to be changed!

PS I'm still getting one. ;)

8 MPG difference over the life of the car is very significant. I will be whining to my dealer and trying to change my A4 to an M6 since the factory hasn't picked up my order yet.

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

So does this mean there is a gas guzzler tax for the automatic, but not the manual?

Yes the A4 gets hit with a $1000 tax the manual does not. Final pricing will be $33,495 for the A4 and $33,190 for the M6.

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

I am still in shock over this development. Mostly at the stupidity of GM to let this slip through. :zap: They KNOW how to get past all these regulations and that a guy like me would just as happily buy a car with 3.08 rear gears as with 3.46...especially for the price difference up front. Then, after driving it for a while, I would have saved up my cash that didn't get double dipped by the government, and put a set of 3.90 rear gears in, which is what I really wanted all along anyway.

On the upside, I bet this instantly makes the Purple A4 cars somewhat of a collector's item. :laughbounce:

I HATE having to pay the government this @#$% gas guzzler tax but have to disagree with you Scott. I'm glad they made the car for all out performance and didn't switch gears, rear ends, detune or whatever else they could have done to beat the guzzler tax. I'd rather pay the tax and have the car maxed out for performance now.

What I really wish they would have done was put a nice 5-speed auto in it and got close to the high highway mileage that the manual did.

Oh well. I expected to pay $33k and this is close. It just bugs me to know that I am forking over an extra grand because the government doesn't think GM should build and I shouldn't want to buy cars like the GTO.

Here's a quote from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml

"The purpose of the Gas Guzzler Tax is to discourage the production and purchase of fuel inefficient vehicles."

(insert F you smilie here)

Originally posted by scottknight@Nov 4 2003, 09:06 PM
On the upside, I bet this instantly makes the Purple A4 cars somewhat of a collector's item. :laughbounce:
I expect my salesman to use that very same argument. :D

Did you see the Purple A4 on Ebay go for $10,000 just for the rights to by it? If I could just find another one of those suckers!

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

"The purpose of the Gas Guzzler Tax is to discourage the production and purchase of fuel inefficient vehicles."

This should read ....of fuel inefficient CARS.

Those jack@$$#$ don't give a rats @$$ about truck and SUV mpg. It's a crock but what can I do about it, just bend over and ........ :zippy:

I am seriously rethinking the manual over the auto now. At least since I'm not in the market until next year I can see what mileage all of you are getting and the performance difference then make my decision.

Originally posted by Orbit Orange@Nov 4 2003, 04:31 PM
I am seriously rethinking the manual over the auto now. At least since I'm not in the market until next year I can see what mileage all of you are getting and the performance difference then make my decision.
In normal daily driving, I doubt there will be a huge difference between the two. However, if you do a lot of highway driving, the stick will obviously get much better mileage.......if you can leave it in sixth and control your right foot! :P

Originally posted by Davbo@Nov 4 2003, 05:17 PM
I'm glad they made the car for all out performance and didn't switch gears, rear ends, detune or whatever else they could have done to beat the guzzler tax. I'd rather pay the tax and have the car maxed out for performance now.
Well, this is where they have already compromised. The 3.46 rear gear in the M6 car is nowhere 'maxed out' for performance. I can't argue whether or not the 3.46 or 3.8x rear gear is better for the A4 yet, but I will bet I would be happier with the latter...especially when I could get it for a whole lot less than the upfront tax.

If these cars were maxed out, they would have LS6, good headers, better tires, and deeper gearing. I truly think they are making a mistake with this decision, but only time will tell, right?

Opposite thing happened with the Tri-9 Impala SS...they came with only 3.08 gears, and what a pathetic showing that was with a 4200+ pound car. Regardless of that (and many other shortcomings) the car became an instant cult generator and those of us that cared just threw 3.42's or 3.73's in them and were happy.

See, this is why you cannot please everyone all the time. All I can say is that I am glad I am not the one that has to answer to having made decisions like this.

Yeah, "maxed out" was probably too strong of a word. It is all about compromises. However, seeing as the composite mpg came in at 21.5 they weren't even close to the 22.5 that they needed to avoid the tax.

Just for comparison, I did look up the 2004 auto M3 and it also "qualifies" for the gas guzzler tax....and it's a 6-speed auto. The 6-speed manual gets the guzzler as well.

So what you are saying is that for my normal around town driving I will be okay but when the wife and I go to see the kids in Spokane (300 freeway miles away) I should trade out the rear end for 3.73?

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

The '05 C6 Vettes get a new 6 speed automatic, maybe the '05 GTO will get it too.

ok pontiac just told me price is 31795 thats all he had /so if the 6spd is a option for 695 more ?? also knew nothing of gas tax ///?????

Originally posted by edsmaroonz@Nov 6 2003, 08:25 PM
ok pontiac just told me price is 31795 thats all he had /so if the 6spd is a option for 695 more ?? also knew nothing of gas tax ///?????
The story is at www.GTO.com . (Also www.pontiac.com and select GTO at the bottom) Select news and events and the first story will have the $31,795 base with $700 destination charge $695 for M6 and $1,000 gas guzzler. As usual we have (and in this case the Ponitac Website has) way more information than the dealers.

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

oops i mean i called pontiac they said and it may not be correct that 31795 was the msrp thats all the guy on the phone knew so if thats true add 700/ destination/ 695 for 6spd/ 1000/auto gas tax??? only the first window sticker will tell??