I just had to write, I cant see why so many Old GTO owners hate the new GTO. Sure it could be more aggressive, etc. But they seem to hate it with a passion.

When the new monaro was released, you didnt see a back lash from old monaro owners saying THATS NO MONARO, it looks crap etc, wheres this, wheres that. They saw the car as what it was, a great rwd performance coupe. Why are so many Old GTOers stuck in the past...... ??? :unsure: :blink:

They dont seem to give the car any credit at all....

They are jealous.

people hate change to bad for them//

I don't think that ALL antique GTO owner's hate the new GTO. I think it may have become expected within their peer group and organizations, but I still think there is a quiet majority that has read the articles and regrets their decision not to pre-order.

You must admit that Kraut and others didn't exactly do a good job of courting those approvals either. They specifically said that this was not their car, but THE GTO for a new generation. Building the GTO to appeal to the antique GTO enthusiasts from the 60's and 70's would've been a huge mistake. Stickers, stripes, ugly hood scoops and duplicate hood tachs all paying homage to the past, would've turned most of US off.

Personally I hope they keep on hating it. I like being a rebel. I like owning a car that not everyone has. I also like the performance the New GTO brings to the table. I don't need anyone's approval for what I like and haven't since 4th grade.

B)

After reading a lot of the naysayer comments, I would advise that you park your GTO off the street at night and keep a watchful eye on it. I can just imagine some turkey from the shallow end of the gene pool running a key along the side in disapproval of its rightful place at the top of the GTO hierachy.

In stark contrast to over here where veryone bows down in hommage.

I would advise that you park your GTO off the street at night and keep a watchful eye on it.

That's why mine will be safely tucked away in the garage! :D

What conscience minded GTO owner would subject their beloved GTO to the rigors of the elements and hooligans. :P :P :P

I spent too many years without a garage, man you can't beat it. :)

Yep the other half of my garage is now cleaned out just waiting....and waiting...and waiting...

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

You guys are right, when we saw the 2 door concept car launched , we went crazy
and Holden had to build it and it just had to be called Monaro. The original
Monaro back in 1968 was based on a 4 door Holden car - Kingswood so no big
deal about the new one based on the 4 door car we have now.
On another site I could not believe the talk, I was waiting for them to want
carbureters, leafsprings,drum brakes and hub caps back. This is a GTO for
the 21st century, it is not retro - so what !!! Buy one an park it next to your
67 GTO if you want the best of both worlds. It has to be one of the best and
only affordable big engine, RWD cars . I had to convert my 70 Camaro to
RHD by myself , you guys can go to the showroom and buy one of our best
allready to jump in and enjoy.

I am an owner of an old GTO and I don't hate the new one. However, I do see many people who love the old and hate the new and vice versa. I just think the old GTO owners expected some styling cues of the originals and there is none at all. I'll admit I am disappointed with the styling, but how could a muscle car guy not love a RWD 350 HP Pontiac car. Well, one thing to hate is that it's not made in America yet. But other than that, you have to like it or at least respect GM for doing it. How can you say you don't want a new GTO to compete with the Mustangs today? I realize you new GTO guys don't understand why some of us don't like it, but you guys get too defensive. Open your minds and look at it from our standpoint. And don't get me wrong, I am a young guy and I love new cars more than anything, I just happen to be in love with the old GTOs...

1966 GTO,

I don't hear or see anyone on this site getting defensive regarding enthusiasts for the old GTO. We are all just questioning their reasoning. What do they want? Why do they continue to dwell? Why do they post pix of fords on their home page, etc? For the most part, I have not seen any "haters" on New Age GTO. Just a bunch of true car guys that can't understand why a few antique enthusiasts can't move on. So you kissed your first girl in a GTO. So you drive a restored GTO. So you've bought nothing but Pontiacs your whole life. And? And? They suggest that a car company should invest billions of dollars, sacrifice everything and build you a one off GTO with everything you want? Me thinks not. GM and specifically Lutz did everything they could to fill the gap created by the demise of the F-body. In comparison to the F-body, the GTO is light years ahead. In comparison to the last GTO, well there is no comparison.

Perspective. If the worst thing that happens to you in your life is that your beloved GTO gets built without scoops, hood tach and stripes? I think you'll survive. Move on, get over it and grow up boys.

Time to go play now. :D :P :D :P :D :P

Relax, we are practically another state of the USA as it is. We have a Maccas,
Burger King, Pizza Hut on every corner, GM-Holden is run by you guys.
You are lucky they didn't get GM-Daewoo to build it out of recycled coke cans
with a wheezy 2 Litre or something. Our biggest car clubs and cruise nights are
just American cars and we love big V8 rear wheel drives. Our biggest
sporting events are V8 super car races, drags and speedway. I am about to
go out tonight to the opening of our speedway season here with killer sprint
cars etc. It could have been worse, so just enjoy your new GTO . It is a solid
new age muscle car. I own a 70 big block rallysport camaro, I love the styles
of the old and occaisionally something like your new GTO comes along that makes
you go WOW! .

Originally posted by CVP@Nov 8 2003, 02:08 AM
I don't think that ALL antique GTO owner's hate the new GTO. I think it may have become expected within their peer group and organizations, but I still think there is a quiet majority that has read the articles and regrets their decision not to pre-order.


I'm thinking that calling them 'old GTO's' and especially 'antique GTO's' will not do anything to get us in their good graces. I'm sure that they take these as insults and would prefer 'original GTO'...

Not that I care really. It's the same as the f-body crowd. It's a newer, arguably better version of something that they have a deep passion for the previous version. And like everything in life, not everybody is going to agree. Ultimately, from everything I've seen 'car' people will appreciate the GTO as much as other modern 'muscle cars' and that's that.

Right on rallysport! Many of us WISH Oz were another State. As it is now, we probably have more in common with you guys than a few "old" states in the union right now. But I digress...

Thanks for bringing us back a classic V8, RWD, kick ass automobile. Technology marches on...I agree with you, if you want leaf springs, etc. - get an 'old goat.' What Holden has given us is a modern machine WITH muscle - something we have few and far between of here in this era of SUV's.

Keep 'em coming, and thanks for all your input - we all really appreciate your tid bits of info mate!

Now for my rant

At the end of the day - these guys just can't move on to better things. They are stuck in some weird 60-70's time warp. They need to Grow Up times change - I can say that since I grew up in the 60's and owned several of the old muscle cars - I am 48 and loving every minute of it and will enjoy it more once my new 04 Phantom Black car arrives in a few weeks.

Yeah I still love Jimi Hendrix and the Doors - but you know music has moved on to - I also like Train, Stained, Edema and other newer groups (helps having a 17 year old) - I guess I should beat myself for this also in addition to God forbid owning a new GTO.

Sorry about that - I am just getting tired of all of the whinning of the guys my age concerning the introduction of this greart car.

Rallysport - as an aside - I will be down in Sydney in mid January on a business trip - can I use my US drivers license to drive in Australia? Does the car rental firms rent high end Monaro's? Beyond that I think we should make you the Australian president of the New US GTO club - your informatuion has been incredible - any seconds to the motion?

My father has a GTO and he loves the new style GTO as well. He is in a GTO car club and has taken his car to shows for years. I asked him this question and what he told me at first did not make sense but once a really thought about it, I was able to understand. I dont know about you but when I went to the car shows I could not wait to get to the area where the GTO's were at. They were always a big hit! Now that the new style GTO is coming out, some people think it is taking away some of the pride in owning the older GTO's. For alot of people there is nothing like a GTO. Some people may think now that the new GTO is coming out, the GTO of old is being replaced. No one likes to be replaced. The thing a lot of people dont realize is, the GTO is not being replaced. It is evolving!

yes they evolve just look at 64to 67 /68/72 wonder if we could go back in time and see if the first buyers hated the next style? bet they hated 73/74 i know i hated the 73to79 novas //

Clearly not ALL the "old" GTO lovers are "new" GTO haters, but those haters who are most vituperative (word for the day) do, in fact, come from the ranks of the "old". Even Ford guys are more likely than not to give the car its due. I think the haters would rather the GTO be dead, so that they can continue to be the heritage's curator and the car's grave digger. They actually argue with all seriousness that the new GTO is not a "real" GTO because it does not have a Pontiac motor! Nevermind that no Pontiac has had a Pontiac motor since the '80's! It is clear to me that NO new GTO could make them happy. If Pontiac started reproducing the 1964 to original spec, they would bitch that the cars weren't being built in the original plant, or that the clearcoat paint sytem was not acceptable, or that the motors were tuned to live on unleaded fuel, or that the third brakelight had to go. I would not even give them the complement of being jealous; they are just small minded, biased, and very full of self-importance.

The Corvette crowd has gone thru a similar problem in the past few years. The C5 is so heads-and-shoulders above the performance of previous vettes and so much cheaper than cars with similar performance, that alot of C5 buyers are first-time Corvette owners (like me). This REALLY bothers the old-school types because the newbies, alot of them, love THEIR vette but don't necessarily worship at the alter of Duntov. I can't tell you how many editorials and letters-to-the-editor I have read in the vette rags about how these new C5 owners are not giving "The Wave" to other vette drivers on the street. (Corvette etiquette requires Corvette owners to wave at each other in traffic - yes, I do this). You would not believe how angry this makes C1-C4 owners. Strangely, other C5 owners, even those like me who have always loved all vettes, can't seem to worry about it. In this case, I think it IS a little bit jealousy, since the vette has never gone out of production (except 1983 - no such vette) and the flame has stayed lit.

The old GTO guys should be happy. When the new GTO hits the streets and the interest gets rekindled, I predict that old GTO market value goes up at least 25%.

CVP, you just made yourself an example of what I am talking about. Though your remarks seem more educated than many I have seen by old GTO haters, you still got on the defensive. And did you try to compare the old GTOs with the new? Of course there is no comparison between cars made 30+ years apart. However, the 60's GTOs were ahead of there time and are fast cars even by today's standards. If you put yourself in an old GTO enthusiast's shoes, how can you not be a little disappointed that the car trying to bring back 60's muscle is made in Australia and looks practically the same as an Australian Monaro. I know I was disappointed, but I moved on. Sure, I want hoodscoops, indented grills, and no **** spoiler. But I still love the GTO and can't wait to see what direction Pontiac goes in with this. But most of you old GTO haters don't realize that there is a history to the GTO, and to brin back the name without any style cues is heresy to some people. And you all think the old GTO lovers want the new one to look exactly the same. We don't. Stop stereotyping GTO enthusiasts as people stuck in the automotive past and refusing to move on. I will break that stereotype more than anyone. But most of you seem to follow the stereotype of people who just want a fast car that looks good for a decent price without realizing the history of such an automobile...

Originally posted by 1966_GTO_@Nov 8 2003, 05:46 PM
CVP, you just made yourself an example of what I am talking about. Though your remarks seem more educated than many I have seen by old GTO haters, you still got on the defensive. And did you try to compare the old GTOs with the new? Of course there is no comparison between cars made 30+ years apart. However, the 60's GTOs were ahead of there time and are fast cars even by today's standards. If you put yourself in an old GTO enthusiast's shoes, how can you not be a little disappointed that the car trying to bring back 60's muscle is made in Australia and looks practically the same as an Australian Monaro. I know I was disappointed, but I moved on. Sure, I want hoodscoops, indented grills, and no **** spoiler. But I still love the GTO and can't wait to see what direction Pontiac goes in with this. But most of you old GTO haters don't realize that there is a history to the GTO, and to brin back the name without any style cues is heresy to some people. And you all think the old GTO lovers want the new one to look exactly the same. We don't. Stop stereotyping GTO enthusiasts as people stuck in the automotive past and refusing to move on. I will break that stereotype more than anyone. But most of you seem to follow the stereotype of people who just want a fast car that looks good for a decent price without realizing the history of such an automobile...
1966 GTO,
With all due respects, I don't think there are any "old GTO haters" here. Many of us, including me, have owned at least one such beast. And I don't think the "history" is lost on any of us, quite the contrary, we revel in it and realize better than most that the new GTO is a direct decendant, not a ******* son. But you really brought me an epiphany about the Old GTO bias when you said 'Pontiac brought back the name without the styling cues, and that is heresy'.
I think many old GTO owners quit looking at new performance cars about 1975, and rightly so, and I don't think most have ever driven an LS1. So when they see a "new" GTO they worry too much about the heresy of what its called and what it looks like, but they completely miss that in SUBSTANCE this IS a GTO. Look around, see many RWD 350hp, $33,000, V8 sport cars lately? The question hinges then on what makes a GTO a GTO? Its "born-on" date? Its hoodscoops? Its GM plant of origin? The number of inches between its dual exhaust tips? Or is it the something more substantial and philosophical? Some people are getting lost in the details. The "Good Old Days" were actually great. But now they're back, and have been since about 1993 (LT1). Some people need to open their eyes and not miss out on this, the second-coming of the Musclecar Era.
1966 GTO, I am not flaming you here as I know you too are lover of both GTOs, but you well-expressed some of the Old GTO feelings that really get to the heart of the matter. I for one would give my right nut to get my '65 back.

no spoiler // gtos had spoilers basicaly there are 3 styles of gtos so how can so many be so upset over one more style open your minds and be honest with yourself/

Let me rephrase myself on the styling situation. Let me quote Car and Driver in their verdict of the 2004 GTO where they said "styling that makes you say'so what?'" I believe the old GTO enthusiasts are upset not because there are no hoodscoops and verticle headlamps, but because the GTO looks like a lot of cars out there. There is no head-turner hear. Nothing but the sound makes you look twice. That is what people are disappointed with...

:bs:

Interesting, I look at a '66 GTO and say 'So what?'

I'm not defensive, nor am I a "hater". I didn't generalize and was careful to say some not all. But I stand by my ealier statements. The earth will continue to turn, I will wake up tomorrow (god willing) and my GTO will be here soon. All of this will come to pass regardless of who likes or dislikes the New GTO. I can't waste another syllable on this topic. Sorry.

Originally posted by 1966_GTO_@Nov 8 2003, 08:28 PM
Let me rephrase myself on the styling situation. Let me quote Car and Driver in their verdict of the 2004 GTO where they said "styling that makes you say'so what?'" I believe the old GTO enthusiasts are upset not because there are no hoodscoops and verticle headlamps, but because the GTO looks like a lot of cars out there. There is no head-turner hear. Nothing but the sound makes you look twice. That is what people are disappointed with...
Point well taken and valid. I just see the plain styling as a blank canvas for my own vision, the aftermarket willing. In contrast, look at the most recent WS6 T/A; way over-the-top and no real way to individualize it. But you're right, its definitely plain, and I was definitely disappointed in the beginning. But the heart of the car is true, and I decided that's all that really matters.

I could give a rats a-- what people think about the looks of this car. Judging by the puky looking cars I see nowdays, Im appreciative of an adult looking go-fast car with a back seat and RWD. I think it looks great and only wish the rear wing was a delete option.

Originally posted by Goat Soldier+Nov 9 2003, 01:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Goat Soldier @ Nov 9 2003, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-1966_GTO_@Nov 8 2003, 08:28 PM
Let me rephrase myself on the styling situation. Let me quote Car and Driver in their verdict of the 2004 GTO where they said "styling that makes you say'so what?'" I believe the old GTO enthusiasts are upset not because there are no hoodscoops and verticle headlamps, but because the GTO looks like a lot of cars out there. There is no head-turner hear. Nothing but the sound makes you look twice. That is what people are disappointed with...
Point well taken and valid. I just see the plain styling as a blank canvas for my own vision, the aftermarket willing. In contrast, look at the most recent WS6 T/A; way over-the-top and no real way to individualize it. But you're right, its definitely plain, and I was definitely disappointed in the beginning. But the heart of the car is true, and I decided that's all that really matters. [/b][/quote]
I believe we have much common ground.

Originally posted by GTOJim@Nov 8 2003, 09:50 PM
I could give a rats a-- what people think about the looks of this car. Judging by the puky looking cars I see nowdays, Im appreciative of an adult looking go-fast car with a back seat and RWD. I think it looks great and only wish the rear wing was a delete option.
I believe we have much common ground.

I would have been just as excited about this car if it was called the Pontiac Monaro.

Once again, Davbo nails it! Maybe the "Old Goat" people would go away then...

I like that blank canvas metaphor. Of course it is a 350 pony canvas....

:laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce: :laughbounce:

OldGoat here. I know you weren't talking directly to me kbaba when you said, "Maybe the "Old Goat" people would go away then... " but that's still not very kind. I am also a little surprised that any member of this forum could look at a 66 GTO and say so what. <_<

:type: And here's some history/corrections for comments earlier in this thread:
1) I don't think any GTOs except maybe the 74 had leaf springs.
2) And ... there was another comment made comparing the performance of C1 - C4 Corvettes with C5s. Most seem to forget that the one year only engine option, LT4, is as fast or in some cases faster than the LS1. They had a higher redline 6300 vs 6000 and were the first Chevy small block V8 with roller rockers. They also had sodium filled exhaust valves. Though rated officially at 15 HP less than an LS1 many dynoed higher than LS1 and most had more torque (area under the curve) especially low-end. It was the LS6 that finally surpassed it in HP, torque and redline RPM, and equalled it with sodium filled valves.

I can see this is a very controversial and emotive subject. But think, we thought our Monaro was dead and buried a long time ago and rejoiced at it's rebirth.
Your GTO name plate was the same but GM knew that it held such a high
place in peoples thinking that only a car worthy of such a name could hold it.
On anything but what you are about to receive ( sorry about that ) it would have
been an insult to the name. You do not sit in the new GTO, you become part of it
on your first drive, it wraps around you. Don"t believe me? Just wait.
And Tails - Cosmo purple, interesting colour - black leather interior, cosmo dash
and stiching highlights I suspect, nice car and colour but Cosmo really comes to
life with carefull hand polishing, goes from black to bright purple in sunlight -
stunning. CV8R or polished wheels would look great.

Originally posted by OldGoat@Nov 9 2003, 07:00 AM
OldGoat here. I know you weren't talking directly to me kbaba when you said, "Maybe the "Old Goat" people would go away then... " but that's still not very kind. I am also a little surprised that any member of this forum could look at a 66 GTO and say so what. <_<

:type: And here's some history/corrections for comments earlier in this thread:
1) I don't think any GTOs except maybe the 74 had leaf springs.
2) And ... there was another comment made comparing the performance of C1 - C4 Corvettes with C5s. Most seem to forget that the one year only engine option, LT4, is as fast or in some cases faster than the LS1. They had a higher redline 6300 vs 6000 and were the first Chevy small block V8 with roller rockers. They also had sodium filled exhaust valves. Though rated officially at 15 HP less than an LS1 many dynoed higher than LS1 and most had more torque (area under the curve) especially low-end. It was the LS6 that finally surpassed it in HP, torque and redline RPM, and equalled it with sodium filled valves.
No doubt, the LT4 and LT5 Vette motors were excellent but they were both strapped into a platform that does not approach that of the C5. When I said "heads-and-shoulders above" the performance of previous Vettes I certainly meant no insult but was pointing toward all-around total performance. I need to read up on the LT4, as I was not aware of the sodium-filled valves (need to do my homework I guess). And under no circumstances should anybody here get into a ZR1 vs Z06 knock-down-drag-out! I have not seen uglier flame wars.

I wasn't going to comment at all on this but knowing I'm among friends I'll throw in my two cents. The first car I owned was a 66 LeMans with an overhead cam 6 which I later swapped out for a built 326 V8. The overhead cam 6 engine came stock with a Rochester 4 BBL carburetor and the camshafts in these motors would last for about 5 runs down the quarter mile and then would wipe out a lobe on the cam, hence the switch to the 326. The 326 was a good motor but I should have gone with a 389 or a built Chevy small block like the 327. This car was as close as I could get to owning a GTO at the time. Circumstances never allowed me another chance to own my dream car (GTO if you haven't guessed already) until now. I have been a Pontiac owner in one shape or form for over 30 years and when I heard that the GTO was returning I was one happy camper as I knew my chance to own one was good! Now for some "older" insight for the younger guy's reading this. The early GTO's hold a very special reverence with me, as I'm sure they do in many older owners. I can't remember a car I wanted to own more. When the new GTO was announced I immediately conjured up visions in my mind of a retro GTO that would in some way resemble the car I loved so much with today's technology thrown in for good measure! I would finally be on the streets with a car everyone would recognize as the king returned! When I saw the first pic released I was crushed! It didn't look anything like what I had imagined. I swore, complained the Pontiac Motor Division had lost all touch with reality, etc....... I went to the Detroit auto show and took with me a closed mindset that when I saw the Yellow GTO they had on display I only took two pictures of it and walked away disappointed and very upset that this was all Pontiac had to offer as a reincarnation of the beloved GTO from my era. After 6 months to settle down a bit I started looking at the GTO again and surprisingly found that it was slowly growing on me! Hey, what the hell it even had some things I really liked! So I found my impressions of the car I loved (66) hated (74 really hated!) disliked (04) slowly changing. After joining some GTO forums I found others that didn't hate the car from the start and had looked at it from a totally different point of view. They had found a lot of good in the new GTO that I had missed due to my frustrations with the initial styling. I took this newfound info from a lot of you and went out to have another look. Maybe Bob Lutz, Lynn Myers, Jim Hopson and all of you saw something in this car that I didn't! Could it possibly be that there were people out there that knew more about cars (especially the GTO) than I did? :D Not so surprisingly I found the same things that excited many of you did the same for me! After much more research and hearing the great things about the build quality from our "mates" down under I went to my local dealer to see what I had to do to get one. He had one just like what I wanted already on order and we talked for about an hour and a half and came to an agreement and the car is mine! My attitude had changed from disappointment to excitement and I'm finally going to own that GTO I've wanted so badly! On my ride home I realized that I had come full circle. Some of you might wonder why I don't just go buy the original GTO that I have always wanted, I'll try to explain. The 66 GTO I wanted was in my opinion the best muscle car of that era and for me to totally enjoy it I needed to have it then not now. I will always hold a great respect for the original GTO and will always wish I could have had one at that time but times have changed and I've always been intrigued with new technology so I'm moving on. I hope the new GTO I'm purchasing will be as much fun for me now as the 66 GTO would have been for me then. One other thing I hope for just as much is that the owners of some of the original GTO's see this car with an open mind and realize we're all just as excited about owning our GTO's as they are to own theirs. If we can all respect the others point of view I think given a little time their attitude toward this car will change just as mine did.

Sorry for this being so long but I didn't have anything to do for the past couple of days so I wrote this! :D

SuprFun, don't feel like reading that whole post, but I also own a 1066 LeMans with an OHC V6... Just thought that was funny.

OldGoat, I'm with you. I doubt many people hear could look at a 1964-1970 GTO and say so what? And I understand many of you would still buy the new GTO no matter what it was called. But the fact that Pontiac called their new best performance model the GTO says a lot about the old GTOs and also says a lot about what directionPontiac wants to take this. The GTO name also comes with an obligation to live up to the GTO name, not the Monaro name. It's too bad Pontiac did not have enough time to make a worthy GTO replacement style-wise, but the aftermarket and eventually Pontiac will fix the errors. You guys that are so in love with the new GTO, or Holden Monaro, fail to see it from a muscle car enthusiasts point of view...

superfun if thats 2 cents worth you owe us 9.98 just kidding when i saw pictures of the silver/ car way back8 months and looking at the gto from[ hsv which i like] i was sad but when i saw the yellow car at the daytona 500 i had to have one even after the pictures of the sema car from this year i still like the original one best. ps i see it from a muscle car point of view a new muscle car point of view 40 years later and i see no errors in the new car as of yet??? also i do like the old > er gtos ....... and chevelles/and buicks//??

You guys that are so in love with the new GTO, or Holden Monaro, fail to see it from a muscle car enthusiasts point of view...


I think many of us do see it from an enthusiasts point of view.

350 HP V8, true dual exhaust, RWD, IRS, 2+2 seating, nice interior, great handling, a healthy aftermarket for the LS1 V8 and a GTO badge to boot.

Sounds like muscle to me regardless of what it's wrapped up in. :)

Not everyone wants their car looking like a teenagers notebook scrawlings of a hot rod, that's what the aftermarket is for.

To me the GTO has a simple and elegant yet muscular look. If someone wants to "muscle" it up with scoops and stripes and body cladding and geegaws then great.

What older GTO enthusiasts need to remember is that "Rome wasn't built in a day". In other words it took a while for the original to "grow" up too. Give the new one some time guys. That's all I have to say as this argument is way past boring and repetitive. :)

SuprFun,
I'm Australian. I have owned Holden cars since 1964. The Holden, up until the subtle handling changes that commenced in 1978 production (Radial Tuned Suspension) were cars that handled slightly less than a supermarket shopping cart. They wallowed like a pig in swill! They cornered so badly that the door handles were the only thing that stopped them from falling over! Brakes were really only glorified saucepan lids!!

From the late 1970s, Holden started to take a bit more customer notice and started to build better quality cars. Everyone was scared of getting the car that was built at 3 30PM on Friday afternoon!! The Japanese cars oozed better-build quality and they had a radio and heater/demister as standard - how dare they!!

From the late 60s to date, there has been fierce rivalry between Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore on and off the race track and it is showing in the build quality and performance/economy expectations of the respective cars.

Holden was virtually (for better words) "in liquidation" in the 1980s and GM HQ "forgave" their debts but made them structurally reform. Holden went through the most ruthless of industrial reforms and came out of it as a very very efficient and smart car builder. I last visited the plant in 1998 and it was so clean, you could almost "eat your dinner off the floor"!

I think you'll enjoy the car - I'm 60 now and potter around straddling two lanes at 60 Km on Cruise Control, but every now and then the SSOF (Senior Silly Old F&*t) sinks the right boot and enjoys the experience.

I think you will too!

Regards

Mike McInerney
Marion
South Australia

You have some haters who are from the I hate all Pontiacs without Pontiac motors, you have the I hate it because it doesn't have scoops, you have the "import" haters, you have the Ford did such a better job on the Mustang haters, you have the target market haters, etc, etc.

Whatever floats your boat, there is a distinct difference between a Pontiac fan and a classic Pontiac fan is the conclusion that I've drawn. I'm a Pontiac fan, always will be. The GTO, GXP, Autocross, etc. are icing on the cake!

Its such a great time to be a Pontiac fan, and if you can't see it, enjoy your classic and go buy a Frod!

Attention All GTO haters. Please stop drinking your hatorade and leave the GTO forum. The GTO rocks. B)