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[Nocturn]

Well that study is regarding the hole in the ozone layer in the far south of the planet, which is independent of the global warming crisis. If nothing else this contradicts your argument that humanity does not/can not effect the environment.

few highlights of that study

"zone concentrations are still quite low and are allowing historically high levels of damaging ultraviolet light to reach Earth's surface, researchers caution. Moreover, once the upswing begins, a recovery is likely to come only in fits and starts over 50 to 60 years"

As for the first post, I'm with you in that the majority of carbon isn't from cars, I think they take an unfair blame in the media roles. But at the same time, things like cat converters, and urea systems for deisles are small things that go long ways when applied across the board. But this is a bit independent of the oil crisis as I eluded to before. I'm against the corporate tax on oil as said they won't pay it, but that graph is a bit outdated (2004 is now 4 years old, and it doesn't reflect the current 3.00 dollar price of gas, or Exxon's record profits, as shown in the industry line, I would love to see one that is updated to 2008 however).

But as said, I'm a bit indifferent to gas prices, I would rather pay more and drive a car I enjoy. I am factoring in gas prices when I make my next purchase, but it won't force me into a different market segment (performance coupes FTW).

The CAFE system of taxing based on MPG achieved is designed around a different system than the Euro system of taxing based on LB of CO2 emitted. Current in the US the CO2 emissions aren't even listed on the sticker, and most americans are rather indifferent about it, vs the price of their gas, which is becoming a larger and larger issue.




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[GT O yea]

Originally Posted by Nocturn

Well that study is regarding the hole in the ozone layer in the far south of the planet, which is independent of the global warming crisis. If nothing else this contradicts your argument that humanity does not/can not effect the environment.

***Yea I know, that's why I posted it. It was response to your statement, "While it is true our recorded history is short for temperature readings, I was refering to the ice cores, which while they do show cycles in the temperature of the earth, they also show the amount of ozone depleting chemicles is increasing."***

Originally Posted by Nocturn

few highlights of that study

"zone concentrations are still quite low and are allowing historically high levels of damaging ultraviolet light to reach Earth's surface, researchers caution. Moreover, once the upswing begins, a recovery is likely to come only in fits and starts over 50 to 60 years"

As for the first post, I'm with you in that the majority of carbon isn't from cars, I think they take an unfair blame in the media roles.

***This is my main point, we can focus on the 2/3 majority of polluters in the world, and the other 1/3 which is transportation, and of that 1/3 cars are only a portion of that, as Aircraft, and large trucking is included. Focusing on our daily driver cars is not needed, its madness, hurting most everyone***

Originally Posted by Nocturn

But at the same time, things like cat converters and urea systems for diesels are small things that go long ways when applied across the board. But this is a bit independent of the oil crisis as I alluded to before. I'm against the corporate tax on oil as said they won't pay it, but that graph is a bit outdated (2004 is now 4 years old, and it doesn't reflect the current 3.00 dollar price of gas, or Exxon's record profits, as shown in the industry line, I would love to see one that is updated to 2008 however).

***Tried to find newer data but this was it in the short time I have***

Originally Posted by Nocturn

But as said, I'm a bit indifferent to gas prices, I would rather pay more and drive a car I enjoy. I am factoring in gas prices when I make my next purchase, but it won't force me into a different market segment (performance coupes FTW).

***I to am not worried about the cost, but everyday I hear the same sort of stories, from friends, family, co-workers, general public in stores, all talking about how it hurts, and what they are cutting out of their budgets to make up for it, dental care, cheap diapers, eating less, cutting out trips for R&R, fewer gifts for their children and family (all effect the economy), people must go to work, and unless you live in the city the ONLY way is by car, bus schedules, if available, rarely operate in conjunction with working hours, especially swing and graveyard shifts. Most of these people already have 80's and 90's model Hondas or something like that, but their budgets are maxed now even with a reasonably decent mpg car, that fact is there is no more money for higher gas prices, so the rest of their lives get adjusted and suffer needlessly. This is not the way to counteract green house gases in my opinion.***

Originally Posted by Nocturn

The CAFE system of taxing based on MPG achieved is designed around a different system than the Euro system of taxing based on LB of CO2 emitted. Current in the US the CO2 emissions aren't even listed on the sticker, and most Americans are rather indifferent about it, vs. the price of their gas, which is becoming a larger and larger issue.

***Doesn't the current requirement to meet 35mpg on all cars by, I believe 2015, meet the Co2 reduction required, I am not to sure the general public will care about the Co2 output on a car, when I go into a grocery store I don't read how much calories something has before I buy it, some do, but no one I know.***

[Nocturn]

Originally Posted by GT O yea

***This is my main point, we can focus on the 2/3 majority of polluters in the world, and the other 1/3 which is transportation, and of that 1/3 cars are only a portion of that, as Aircraft, and large trucking is included. Focusing on our daily driver cars is not needed, its madness, hurting most everyone***

I don't think it is hurting anyone though, aside from keeping your cars running properlly (which most should do anyways), and meeting required safety and emissions inspectsions there isn't any other costs involved. Any car made after 96 is OBDII, which doesn't even need a sniffer test as long as it doesn't throw any codes.

Originally Posted by GT O yea

***I to am not worried about the cost, but everyday I hear the same sort of stories, from friends, family, co-workers, general public in stores, all talking about how it hurts, and what they are cutting out of their budgets to make up for it, dental care, cheap diapers, eating less, cutting out trips for R&R, fewer gifts for their children and family (all effect the economy), people must go to work, and unless you live in the city the ONLY way is by car, bus schedules, if available, rarely operate in conjunction with working hours, especially swing and graveyard shifts. Most of these people already have 80's and 90's model Hondas or something like that, but their budgets are maxed now even with a reasonably decent mpg car, that fact is there is no more money for higher gas prices, so the rest of their lives get adjusted and suffer needlessly. This is not the way to counteract green house gases in my opinion.***

This has more to do with the overal recessions increasing costs across the board IMO. That and for far to long Americans haven't had to prioritize in their needs vs wants. If people can't afford what they need then it is time they started cutting back on what they only THINK they need. There is no reason a family can't budget accordingly, the problem is that they have convinced themselves they need luxeries that they can't really afford. This is the same mindset that got people into 70 year mortgages and two story houses. There is just to much excess consumerism that is being financed by credit, and loans. So now that the price of this inellastic good rises, people are feeling the crunch. That sucks, but people need to learn to live within their means.

But that is independent of the fight for emissions reduction. Reducing emissions does not raise the price of gasoline or oil at all.

Originally Posted by GT O yea

***Doesn't the current requirement to meet 35mpg on all cars by, I believe 2015, meet the Co2 reduction required, I am not to sure the general public will care about the Co2 output on a car, when I go into a grocery store I don't read how much calories something has before I buy it, some do, but no one I know.***

The idea is that they two aren't related. A car can make 35MPG, but that doesn't mean it will emit less Co2 than a car that gets 30MPG or so. Many deisles get high MPG but produce more Co2 than less efficient gasoline engines.

Most people DON'T care about emissions, they are by far more concerned witht he costs of gas, which is why we are seeing the CAFE standards, but the CAFE standards don't effect how much Co2 the cars put out. If cutting the Co2 output from cars is as simple as requiring a new technology (such as cat. converters or such) I don't see any reason not to be for it.



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[GT O yea]

Originally Posted by Nocturn

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I don't think it is hurting anyone though, aside from keeping your cars running properlly (which most should do anyways), and meeting required safety and emissions inspectsions there isn't any other costs involved. Any car made after 96 is OBDII, which doesn't even need a sniffer test as long as it doesn't throw any codes.

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This has more to do with the overal recessions increasing costs across the board IMO. That and for far to long Americans haven't had to prioritize in their needs vs wants. If people can't afford what they need then it is time they started cutting back on what they only THINK they need. There is no reason a family can't budget accordingly, the problem is that they have convinced themselves they need luxeries that they can't really afford. This is the same mindset that got people into 70 year mortgages and two story houses. There is just to much excess consumerism that is being financed by credit, and loans. So now that the price of this inellastic good rises, people are feeling the crunch. That sucks, but people need to learn to live within their means.

But that is independent of the fight for emissions reduction. Reducing emissions does not raise the price of gasoline or oil at all.



The idea is that they two aren't related. A car can make 35MPG, but that doesn't mean it will emit less Co2 than a car that gets 30MPG or so. Many deisles get high MPG but produce more Co2 than less efficient gasoline engines.

Most people DON'T care about emissions, they are by far more concerned witht he costs of gas, which is why we are seeing the CAFE standards, but the CAFE standards don't effect how much Co2 the cars put out. If cutting the Co2 output from cars is as simple as requiring a new technology (such as cat. converters or such) I don't see any reason not to be for it.

Your such a golden boy, you have obviously never been poor and lived wondering how your going to feed your family. I am a volenteer for Hospice and Saint Judes meals on wheels, and see elderly and mentally handicapped folks everyday, there is NO WAY FOR THEM TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE STYLE, your ignorance on this is quite disappointing. The recession itself is NOT effecting these people, they all have the same job or source of income, the same home, the same car, the same bills, most can not afford entertainment now, so the only thing that gets hurt is them. The ONLY difference is the price of gas, period. Besides this is a limited recession and only effecting certain industries, many others are booming stronger than they have in 15 years. Gas prices alone are driving the cost of everything up and is the primary reason for the recession. You need to watch Financial news a little more. You have your oppinion and I have mine. Don't see how we could come to any middle ground on this debate. Its been fun though

[Nocturn]

Originally Posted by GT O yea

and see elderly and mentally handicapped folks everyday, there is NO WAY FOR THEM TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE STYLE, The ONLY difference is the price of gas, period. Besides this is a limited recession and only effecting certain industries, many others are booming stronger than they have in 15 years. Gas prices alone are driving the cost of everything up and is the primary reason for the recession. You need to watch Financial news a little more. You have your oppinion and I have mine. Don't see how we could come to any middle ground on this debate. Its been fun though

I didn't mention the elderly and mentally handicapped did I? If you reread my post I said a family (generally speaking the average american 2.3 some odd child home).

I would like examples of the booming industries at the moment.

Also, gas prices aren't the sole cause of this recession if that is what you are implying, Gas prices were rising long before the recession, if anything the housing and lending industries is more at fault than the oil business.



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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrUZUf59IU