2nd ammendment

[Nocturn]

I could just never be ...no offense, but arrogant enough to deem myself worthy to end someones life like it was myn own, or decide that they don't deserve to live anymore. I don't feel I have the right to do something like that.

I dont have any problems carrying a knife, or learning martial arts (my father was a 4th or 5th degree Black belt in Shotokhan). But carrying a gun just puts to much power in to many people's hands. If used responsible then yes they can be fine, but I don't think the police should even be authorized to carry them. Austin has had about 4 deaths in the past two years that were deemed unnecesary due to excessive force.

There are just so many other non terminal ways of defending yourself than to end their life that I don't see a need for them...but thats just my opinion.



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[NinjaGTO]

southern indiana here, big time red neck. Just letting you know ahead of time what my opinion will be. Remember guns dont kill people, people kill people. Now if you had to take some sort of test to be able to purchase a firearm i can see the logic there. But if you take them away, whats next??? fines for cursing??? Without guns, we would all be british and still kissing kings and queens arsses. So IMO, it should be just like my grandpa's license plate....GOD,GUTS,GUNS. Keep in mind ending a life is wrong and a sin, but if the shoe were on the other foot, would they spare your life?

[TehRox]

right, if i threw all my guns away, that isnt ganna stop people form illegally getting them, then im done, i dont think martial arts or a tomahawk is ganna stop a .50

[Nocturn]

....you'd be surprised. In most "what if" casses a gun is justified by saying it is used to fend off multiple attacks, in which case they are usually within a close range, breaking into your house for example, in which case a properlly trained person can render a person unarmed in the time it takes the person to raise the gun to shoulder heigth, take aim, and fire.... The only time it isn't effective is in a long range...in which case your not using it for defence.



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[digitalgod]

As someone who has disarmed several real attackers wielding various weapons (baseball bats, clubs, knives, and even a rifle once) either situation has its advantages. Unarmed, the attacker feels safe and confident and may allow you to close the range to disarm. Unfortunately, and especially with a gun, if they don't care whether they hurt you, you are in deep doo doo. With a gun or a weapon better than theirs, you are in a superior situation and as long as you maintain the tactical situation that provides that superiority you can end the situation peacefully. If the weapons are evenly matched though, then the attacker feels the only way to maintain his safety is to use his weapon and then your both in deep doo doo.

I have to tell you that I wasn't terribly scared of most of the weapons I've faced (largely because of who was wielding them) but if you aren't scared of a firearm when you are unarmed your just not right in the head.

[FROROCKS]

Anybody from the San Fran. area? Is it true that they may be taking all the hand guns away from the citizens there?!

[Nocturn]

Thats what i'v herd...



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[MajorMajor]

Nocturn the Fact of the matter is that the 2nd ammendment runs deep and intertwines with alot of the American History, Heritage and Traditions. I would kill someone with a gun in an instant if they threaten my life and if they have a gun I'd sure like to have the best firepower there is to counter. Same with hunting and wilderness situations, your not gonna knock off a Sow Grizzly who you just accidentally walked in between her and her cubs with a bowie knife or Tai Kwon Do. I feel there will never be an outlawing of guns in the US because having the ability to bear arms to protect ourselves from our own government so need be is a right every citizen has and as long as the government has guns which they could, if they wanted to, turn on the people. the people themselves will maintain a right to be able to equal the playing field just that tiny bit. Also remember in 28 days later if they had had a gun they wouldn't have had that much to worry about those zombies would've bought the farm (again?)

[Croft316]

The way I see it, no matter what anyone thinks about having guns (although I'm kinda partial to em myself having a 12 gauge & a 20 gauge among others), if someone tried to take them away, it'd cause a civil war. Not exactly the best way to help save lives.

[Nocturn]

Originally Posted by MajorMajor

Same with hunting and wilderness situations, your not gonna knock off a Sow Grizzly who you just accidentally walked in between her and her cubs with a bowie knife or Tai Kwon Do.

ROFL ROFL, Oh man that was great, Tai Kwon do is the Mustang of martial arts. Looks flashy but no real substance.

I can understand the need for one in say the mountains, or rural areas, but most people I talk to about the subject usually live in cities in which case there arn't any real bears and cubs around. Take for example San Fransisco banning on firearms, I doubt there are going to be any BEAR related fatalities popping up around that area.

You say its a matter of fighting the government should the oppurtunity arise, but what good is an assualt rifle against a tank, or aircraft. The military is so far beyond what the is accesible to the public, I don't mean in the average marine rifle, but in the vehicles and aircraft department. Added to that is the fact that the government is not only military, but also the police forces.

I'm not totally against guns, My grand father has a old WWI rifle (that he has fired before and still works) and I wouldn't take it away from him, nor would I from any responsible adult, the problem IMO lies in that any angry 21 year old can go out and buy a handgun and wave it around and be as irresponsible as he wants, killing as many people as he wants. The Dime Bag Darrel shootings for example, were two musicians were killed when a gunman shot them at point blank range on stage, and then continued to fire into the crowd. The shooter was killed but that doesn't make it right, that just turns two fatalities into three. It is just to easy for a person to gain access to that power and back it up by saying "its the second amendment" when they really shouldn't have near the responsibilty of being around one.

Another example, is how many drinking driving deaths there are a year, these are people who arn't responsible enough to get either someone else to drive or to find another way home, yet I personally know at least ten people who will drink and drive frequently and not think anything of it. Millions of people drink, Millions of people drive, but only the few minority don't do it responsible, and it has reprcusions, but what good does reactive measures in a life and death situation.



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[MajorMajor]

Yeah that was great wasn't it lol, I was merely throwing out different things thats all the Wilderness which is completely plausible. As far as tai kwon do or any other martial art for that matter wont help against a 1000lb bear so..... yeah.The fighting the Gov't thing is in relation to why their are some of those nutjob paramilitary groups in our country, it would be an excuse they'd use to back it. As far as guns in a heavily civilized area like a city would be for protection from other people. Id be willing to agree that a Strict limitation on Handguns because they are in one way only portable death. But we also remember guns don't kill people, Husbands who come home early do. (Larry the Cable guy is great lol)

[JGinhisSS]

Nocturn, would you try to join your local police department and refuse to carry a firearm? You should know they do psych exams when you go in. And drug tests. How many old ladies have you taught to kung fu? Do you really think I should surrender my safety, my family's safety because you wouldn't feel right if some criminal's career came to a sudden stop? I'm trying to read what you wrote but I'm not sure who you want to be "properly trained" and who you want to "render unarmed." The crooks may have seen more Bruce Lee movies than you have.
Officer Nocturn, you do your chop suey and train for a million situations. You can be sure #1,000,001 will find you. With 28 years behind me I felt fortunate to retire with only a broken shoulder, broken nose and lacerated ankles during my time. Have you ever trained for barbed wire being dragged across your ankles by a motorcycle? Neither did I. Nocturn, you weren't there to wave your knife around and save me so I'm ashamed to say I resorted to firing a .357 magnum at his back tire. End of barbed wire story.
Nocturn, you may live by some weird self-made rules. We live by the 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment, etc. If you give up these rights so easily, you can count on giving up your car too. Maybe in your case that would be best for everybody.

[Nocturn]

Originally Posted by JGinhisSS

Nocturn, would you try to join your local police department and refuse to carry a firearm? You should know they do psych exams when you go in. And drug tests. How many old ladies have you taught to kung fu? Do you really think I should surrender my safety, my family's safety because you wouldn't feel right if some criminal's career came to a sudden stop? I'm trying to read what you wrote but I'm not sure who you want to be "properly trained" and who you want to "render unarmed." The crooks may have seen more Bruce Lee movies than you have.
Officer Nocturn, you do your chop suey and train for a million situations. You can be sure #1,000,001 will find you. With 28 years behind me I felt fortunate to retire with only a broken shoulder, broken nose and lacerated ankles during my time. Have you ever trained for barbed wire being dragged across your ankles by a motorcycle? Neither did I. Nocturn, you weren't there to wave your knife around and save me so I'm ashamed to say I resorted to firing a .357 magnum at his back tire. End of barbed wire story.
Nocturn, you may live by some weird self-made rules. We live by the 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment, etc. If you give up these rights so easily, you can count on giving up your car too. Maybe in your case that would be best for everybody.

I'm not sure what you mean by giving up my car being the best for everyone, I'v never hurt anyone with my car. Nor do I actually teach a martial art, simply was a student at one point in time.
Please don't take this thread as a personal attack on anyone, as it isn't meant to be, but more a debate thread.
I would love to see the police trained to not use firearms, there are many nations in Europe that don't carry firearms but somehow anarchy hasn't broken out over there..(except for france a couple times , but that was a culture motivated act so).

In properlly trained I mean not simply the know how/use of a firearm, but someone who is mature enough to know the potentially reprecusions of their actions. I was not meaning the police forces by that statement as they usually are...although sometimes I feel they can be to quick to jump to lethal measures when non lethal would have worked. At least here in Austin that is the case, not saying its true on a nationwide bassis.

Your trying to use my self defense argument in more than one way, I meant that for personal and family defense a knife, or a matial art is all that is needed to defend you and your family's safety, its quite different if you go out and look for crime to fight for a living would you not agree? I would say the police are going to have to deal with alot more crazyness than the rest of the public would. Therefor different circumstances call for different means, the average john citizen isn't going to be exposed to the things that police officers are, so its unfair to say my argument doesn't apply that well to them, when of course it's not..it's not meant to.

If you read my statements I was aruging against the statement that a person needs a gun to defend himself, when that is simply not true, it can be accomplished by a variety of means that doesn't result in the death of any individual.

There is a fine line between owning operating and being responsible enough to carry a firearm, and just going out and buying one. Now a days anyone can go out and buy an AK using the 2nd ammendment to back it up, and go around using it however irresponsible they want.

Some are going to say the same is true for a car, but it's not because the intended use of the manufactorer is quite differen't, No one engineers cars to be lethal weapons.

One last questions, as a law enforcment officer, would you not have felt better if you knew that all firearms were illegal (hypothetically) and that the public couldn't get their hands on one as they can now?

Yes you may have the constituntional right to own/carry a firearm, but you don't have a constitutional right to kill a person.



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[JGinhisSS]

Nocturn, I'm pretty sure you never injured anybody with your car. My comment was as silly as yours. You can only train everybody to be ninjas in your hypothetical world. This is the USA, not Europe and I'm glad of it. I have met some nice Europeans but they didn't try to tell me who the Bill of Rights should really belong to. Were you born in Texas?
We ALL have the right to bear arms and I will re-train each year to keep my nationwide carry permit. I believe if I'm qualified and the situation arises it would be pathetic to show up with a knife. So I travel 160 miles, do the re-training and pay my own expenses. I carry concealed so you won't pay any more attention to me than you pay to other guys in their 50's.
My extended family ranges in age from 80's to toddlers all across the state including one victim of a violent crime. I can't protect all of them but if they needed help, I would hope somebody would stand up for them. If you want to defend your family with knives and chop socky, good luck, go for it! Please don't try to impose that one-size-fits-all dream world on me or anybody else. In my dream world Greta Scacchi shows up at the door ten minutes after my wife goes to work. Not happening!
You say cops see more craziness. Usually the victim saw it first. Cops and criminals don't move around in one area separated from the rest of the human race. When I broke my shoulder, I found myself trying to push a drunk off of me with a temporarily paralyzed left arm. My right arm was pinned under me. A civilian swinging a shotgun knocked him off of me.
You value human life but many criminals do not value your life, maybe not even their own. They want your property, your wife, your kids or something. I never shot anybody but I know officers that did. You are more likely to spend months in court when you give somebody a beating. That's not justification, it's just the legal system.
The last news story I read about Austin cops was after an officer on foot was accidentally run over by a police car. Try to give them the benefit of the doubt until you learn the real story (not outhouse rumors). Don't trust the papers to report the whole story without bias. I'm sure your politics shape your argument and that's OK. Politics and karate won't save you when the time comes. I hope it never comes but I won't go armed only with good intentions.
You are much more entertaining when you talk about cars. How many GTO's are you going to see in Europe?

[Nocturn]

Well a good many since its rebadged as the Vauxhall VXR over there...And It gets rave reviews.

For one I can assume you have never studied a martial art by your nicknames you give it, so I can assume you don't have any respect for it, but my father trained the two time female national champion..and well its something you have to experiance to understand.

I was born and raised in Texas, and both my father, and his before him were in the armed forces, so don't try and say Im so rubber knee liberal from the North East.

The officer who got run over by her partner was awhile ago, there have been a number of "questionable" shootings that were deemed unnecesary force since then, and most of them along racial lines..so it has been a matter of some contraversy.

What I meant by the police dealing with crime is not that it happens in a seperate world, but most people don't deal with the things you guys have to on any given night. Most people don't go on drug raids, or deal with drunks, or anything like that. If they do its at least not to the same degree...I think you will agree with me on that.

Now, this hypothetical world isn't one, you say you can't train everyone to be "ninjas" when actually its simple self defense like how to escape from a choke hold, things where a gun might not always be of use. And while you can't train everyone in the US, not everyone in the US owns a gun. So your point is of equal validicy to you also. Personally I would feel better knowing that if someone wanted to harm me they would at least have to come within arm/leg distance rather than simply being able to pull out a gun and pull a trigger.

If everyone were required to take a course and pay fees to own a firearm it might be a different story, but as it stands anyone can purchase one and be able to murder someone without a second thought based on their whim.

You may be glad this isn't Europe, but the point remains valid, that they don't use firearms for law enforcment and it has worked, you can get your arse beat by them, but they won't kill you...frankly that seems like a better deal to me. Only in America would you get a harsher punishment for beating up someone than killing them.

You also didn't answer my question on whether or not you would have felt safer all 28 years of your service if you knew that firearms were illegal, and only the police could legally have them.



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